First Mooney Purchase Coming Soon...

[CoffeeCan]

Hello, James Williams here... I've been lurking on this forum and several other Mooney sites for 2-3 years doing my "research", and I'm getting close to finally purchasing my first Mooney.  I've appreciated the discussions here on this forum, y'all have helped a lot in explaining the pros and cons of the various models. I'm looking seriously at the 231's, as these fit my personal mission best. (I think... I'm still a noob, open to suggestion!)

I settled on the Mooney line for the same reasons most of the rest of you seem to have done.  I've looked closely at th Beech and Piper models, and of course the spendy planes like Cirrus, etc, , thought about a twin, but it always comes back to the 201-231 for me. 

I fly a 172XP Skyhawk currently. Most of my flying is for business, 250+ NM flights being the norm. I live in south TX (moving back to west TX this summer) so I can rely on VFR conditions much of the time, but I still have to drive to jobs too much so am working on my IFR training now.  My business is expanding into OK and NE, however, and the Skyhawk is a suboptimal platform for regular 400+ NM flights. Also, my wife and I have 7 adult kids living in 5 different states... and having the ability to fly our own aircraft for family visits is a very attractive option. One 750 NM flight was sufficient to prove to me the need for an airplane with longer legs than the little Cessna. 

So, most of my flying is/will be solo XC flight for business; second largest segment of the mission is dual XC flight with my wife (she is just starting her PP training), and a third but small segment of the mission will include flights with family. Most will be flatland flying (TX and the Midwest), but with one daughter's recent move with her husband to Nevada, flying over mountains will be part of the mission profile. A 231 makes more sense to me given these parameters. 

Looking at the used 231 market, there is a wide range of airplanes available at any given point in time, with a wide range of options offered. I'm curious as to what you experienced Mooney pilots would recommend as must-have features, and what things would be nice to have but not crucial. A good electronic engine monitor like the JPI seems pretty important for the turbo aircraft, I think... but what else? I not looking for ability to fly into known icing conditions, for example, but is a hot prop a prudent thing to have for my mission, etc? 

Looking forward to your comments.  Thanks in advance.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by CoffeeCan

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard CC.

When using a plane for work...  You are probably going to want to get as much capability as you can with the plane...

When it comes to 231s, there are no new ones...

Become familiar with the PPI.  The pre purchase inspection is for the protection of your wallet.

TX is a great place to own a Mooney.

Have you visited All American Aircraft?  A great place to visit to see all the options ever put in Mooneys...

There sales group is pretty good at explaining the advantages and costs of each option.

The ultimate M20Ks are 252s, 262s, and Rockets... choose the engine, turbo, pressure controller and intercooler...

Try to figure out what plane meets your mission best.  Otherwise, the mission creep is in 10amu steps... at the end, you will be buying a brand new Acclaim for 10amu more...   

I stayed with the NA Ovation...  If I were traveling for business, it would be set up for FIKI...

If I stayed in TX, my O would have AC to go with that FIKI system... and an onboard O2 system...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[CoffeeCan]

Thanks, Carusoam. Yes, having everything is nice, but not always feasible! I've spent some time talking with Jimmy and David at All American, and recently visited their hangar and spent a few hours with David going over these same questions. The phrase "bewildering array of options" comes to mind!

[carusoam]

David is awesome!

I learned a lot about ownership of M20Cs from him.   Then I learned about Os a decade later... real hands on learning for the O.

There are a few K owners around here.  

Many Mooniacs post picture of their panel upgrades.  So many new radios available today with modern amenities like weather and traffic...

It is nice to get a plane that already has this stuff... realistically,  everything gets old after a decade...

Bets regards,

-a-

[DonMuncy]

When I got my 231, I had speed brakes on my must have list. I really like them, but they would not be on a must have list now.

Today, it is almost not worth mentioning, a GPS (Garmin 430W or better) is a must.

A GPSS for your GPS/Autopilot would be on a must have (or must add) list.

A voice annunciator (landing gear and stall) would be on a must have (or must add) list.

ADSB would be on a must have (or must add) list.

A good engine monitor is a must have.

I have my hot prop disconnected. If ice is expected, I don't go; so not a must have, to me.

Feel free to PM or call me if I can help.

 

[Bryan]

For a 231, ensure it has a upgraded wastegate and intercooler (most do now days)

Other must haves on my list:

—waas gps, engine monitor, PPI from known Mooney service providers, adsb, often flown engine, no weeps/leaks, no corrosion

I started with an F, graduated quickly to a 231, and now a 252 Encore

[Bryan]

Also, AAA sold me both my 231 and my Encore. (David and Jimmy are great)

[CoffeeCan]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

When I got my 231, I had speed brakes on my must have list. I really like them, but they would not be on a must have list now.

Today, it is almost not worth mentioning, a GPS (Garmin 430W or better) is a must.

A GPSS for your GPS/Autopilot would be on a must have (or must add) list.

A voice annunciator (landing gear and stall) would be on a must have (or must add) list.

ADSB would be on a must have (or must add) list.

A good engine monitor is a must have.

I have my hot prop disconnected. If ice is expected, I don't go; so not a must have, to me.

Feel free to PM or call me if I can help.

 

Don, thanks for the reply.  Yours is one of the brains here I really want to pick, I must say!  I'll PM so we can discuss further. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'd list out your must haves and then organize them by how much it would cost to add each one.

I always start with a good autopilot. I know there are some good ones coming on the market... maybe... An autopilot with altitude pre-select is super nice to have and very expensive to add later.

A moving map, WAAS GPS would be next on the list as the cost to add one can quickly exceed $20K

A good engine monitor is a must have for me... but they aren't crazy expensive to add. I've upgraded both of the Mooneys I've owned with one or a better one. Figure $5k to $8k for a good one installed.

ADSB is also a must have for me... but again, if you've already got the WAAS GPS, ADSB isn't all that expensive to add. Figure $5K or less.

Then I'd agree with @Bryan that you probably want an Intercooler and Wastegate. They were a must have for me, but come standard on the 252's.

Best of luck with the search. I don't have a 231 but would be happy to show you a good 252 and take you for a ride to compare... it's not for sale.

[chrisk]

I have a 231.

I consider the following mandatory (or plan on adding them)

• At the top of the list is a good engine monitor. Add one if it doesn't have one.   There can be quite a range in the temperature of the cylinder heads. The factory gauge would easily let me exceed the CHT on some of the cylinders.
• A functional auto pilot, especially if you are going to be on a lot of longer trips.
• A WAAS GPS.  With the range of the 231, you will have very different weather across your trip.  You will want GPS approaches.
• Built in O2, since you will need O2 for longer flights (since it takes a while to climb to 02 altitude).

 

My wish list is

• Intercooler.  I don't have one, but would like one.  Ive been tempted by the turbo plus offering, but I havn't been able to bring my self to spend the money
• Long Range tanks.  It takes a long time to climb to the flight levels. Stay there as long as you can.
• TKS.  I've run into ice in August.  Its still freezing when you are in the flight levels.  Too bad there is not a FIKI 231.
• Hot Prop.  If you ever iced up a prop, you would know why you want one.
• Merlyn waste gate controller.  Better critical altitude.
• Gami Injectors
• Audible gear warning.  (Bitching Betty)

And nice to have

• Speed Breaks.  I have them, but seldom use them.  They are useful if you really have to loose altitude.  Has anyone mentioned you may start your descent 100+ miles out.  Do the math.  200 MPH, 500 ft per min, and 20,000 feet.   Sometimes the controllers make you wait until much closer.
• LED position and landing lights.
• 401 ELT with GPS.   --You never know.

 

If you make it to KGTU (Just north of Austin), I'd be happy to show you my 231.

[231LV]

Having owned my 231 for about 15 years, I concur with most of what the others have said.....saying that, in my opinion (for what its worth), were I to do everything over again and start where you are I would seriously consider the 252 with the specific serial numbers which allow for the MB engine upgrade. Not all 252's are eligible and there was a thread here a while back which specified which serial numbers were eligible and the approximate cost.  The price differential between the 231 and 252 (IIRC)  is/was $60k ish...The Rocket is fast but at a hefty price in fuel burn and purchase price. If you are determined to stay with the 231 (and there are some real steals out there) I consider an intercooler a mandatory item along with a good engine analyzer and Gami's. This gets you running LOP where life is cooler and more economical. Regarding the panel, where do you want to start?? Most planes are slowly going glass which is pricey. More than likely,  you will pay for the glass in the purchase price but at a minimum, a WAAS 430 or equivalent for nav purposes....The 231's come standard with a decent autopilot (mine has a Century 41) but make sure it is in good shape as they are very expensive to repair. There are very few GB engines left in the 231 fleet but if the plane you are looking at has one, don't run away from it. I have been running a GB for 15 years and it still is running fine. I just keep it below 380 degrees on the hottest jug. You should be able to negotiate the price a bit lower versus an LB. Weeping fuel tanks are costly to repair correctly so check for fuel stains after a flight or better yet, a log book entry showing they were done....not patched but a full strip and reseal. I strongly suggest a plane that already has the ADSB mandate fulfilled. That speaks to the panel and what the previous owner did. Built in O2 is a definite for me but you can get away with portables in a pinch. Speed brakes are a nice to have but not a gotta have. There you have it....the 231 is a great machine and I get 175 kts true at 17k on about 11 gph....tough to beat those economics. The 252 upgrade gets you an increase in useful load which is always nice as the stock 231 is rather anemic in that department. I fly out of northern AZ so known Ice is not on my mandatory list...if there is ice in the clouds, I won't go....A/C is a nice to have but not at the sacrifice of useful load for me...hot prop....I have it....rarely used it except in ice which I always tried to get out of faster than I got into it....good luck in your search and if you find a gem....jump on it....they don't hang around for long!

[CoffeeCan]

19 hours ago, chrisk said:

I have a 231.

I consider the following mandatory (or plan on adding them)

• At the top of the list is a good engine monitor. Add one if it doesn't have one.   There can be quite a range in the temperature of the cylinder heads. The factory gauge would easily let me exceed the CHT on some of the cylinders.
• A functional auto pilot, especially if you are going to be on a lot of longer trips.
• A WAAS GPS.  With the range of the 231, you will have very different weather across your trip.  You will want GPS approaches.
• Built in O2, since you will need O2 for longer flights (since it takes a while to climb to 02 altitude).

 

My wish list is

• Intercooler.  I don't have one, but would like one.  Ive been tempted by the turbo plus offering, but I havn't been able to bring my self to spend the money
• Long Range tanks.  It takes a long time to climb to the flight levels. Stay there as long as you can.
• TKS.  I've run into ice in August.  Its still freezing when you are in the flight levels.  Too bad there is not a FIKI 231.
• Hot Prop.  If you ever iced up a prop, you would know why you want one.
• Merlyn waste gate controller.  Better critical altitude.
• Gami Injectors
• Audible gear warning.  (Bitching Betty)

And nice to have

• Speed Breaks.  I have them, but seldom use them.  They are useful if you really have to loose altitude.  Has anyone mentioned you may start your descent 100+ miles out.  Do the math.  200 MPH, 500 ft per min, and 20,000 feet.   Sometimes the controllers make you wait until much closer.
• LE
• D position and landing lights.
• 401
• ELT with GPS.   --You never know.

 

If you make it to KGTU (Just north of Austin), I'd be happy to show you my 231.

Chris, thanks for the offer, I've flown my 172 into Georgetown a couple of times. Nice airport, great town.

I'd like to get to know some of you Mooniacs personally as I explore this journey. There is nothing like hands-on airplane observations, and face-to-face discussions. I've talked to a couple of y'all on the phone already and y'all seem a friendly bunch, not to mention knowledgeable.

BTW, I decided to do the math as you suggested, and holy schneikies, that's a 103 mile descent from 17,000' to my airport's pattern! FWIW, I've already noticed that speed brakes are already on several 231's I'm looking at. To be honest, after a couple of talks and a long visit with David at AAA, I'm leaning toward selecting from aircraft with the best airframes, engines and turbos/intercoolers as a priority rather than looking at planes with fancy avionics. Just about every plane I've looked at is going to need ADS/B-out installed, so I'm going to have to spend some money on avionics pretty soon on almost any airplane I buy. So a plain steam-gauge panel with a good engine/turbo  looks more desirable than a glass cockpit at this point. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by CoffeeCan

[CoffeeCan]

53 minutes ago, 231LV said:

Having owned my 231 for about 15 years, I concur with most of what the others have said.....saying that, in my opinion (for what its worth), were I to do everything over again and start where you are I would seriously consider the 252 with the specific serial numbers which allow for the MB engine upgrade. Not all 252's are eligible and there was a thread here a while back which specified which serial numbers were eligible and the approximate cost.  The price differential between the 231 and 252 (IIRC)  is/was $60k ish...The Rocket is fast but at a hefty price in fuel burn and purchase price. If you are determined to stay with the 231 (and there are some real steals out there) I consider an intercooler a mandatory item along with a good engine analyzer and Gami's. This gets you running LOP where life is cooler and more economical. Regarding the panel, where do you want to start?? Most planes are slowly going glass which is pricey. More than likely,  you will pay for the glass in the purchase price but at a minimum, a WAAS 430 or equivalent for nav purposes....The 231's come standard with a decent autopilot (mine has a Century 41) but make sure it is in good shape as they are very expensive to repair. There are very few GB engines left in the 231 fleet but if the plane you are looking at has one, don't run away from it. I have been running a GB for 15 years and it still is running fine. I just keep it below 380 degrees on the hottest jug. You should be able to negotiate the price a bit lower versus an LB. Weeping fuel tanks are costly to repair correctly so check for fuel stains after a flight or better yet, a log book entry showing they were done....not patched but a full strip and reseal. I strongly suggest a plane that already has the ADSB mandate fulfilled. That speaks to the panel and what the previous owner did. Built in O2 is a definite for me but you can get away with portables in a pinch. Speed brakes are a nice to have but not a gotta have. There you have it....the 231 is a great machine and I get 175 kts true at 17k on about 11 gph....tough to beat those economics. The 252 upgrade gets you an increase in useful load which is always nice as the stock 231 is rather anemic in that department. I fly out of northern AZ so known Ice is not on my mandatory list...if there is ice in the clouds, I won't go....A/C is a nice to have but not at the sacrifice of useful load for me...hot prop....I have it....rarely used it except in ice which I always tried to get out of faster than I got into it....good luck in your search and if you find a gem....jump on it....they don't hang around for long!

Yeah, I've noticed that nice airplanes seem to vanish off the Controller website pretty quickly! That's why I decided to get my oar in the water with Jimmy and David at AAA and get some guidance in the purchase process. 

I originally thought I'd like a 252, but as you point out it's a good $60K more to get into one of those, and my budget ceiling is firmly below that level. Also, the waiting list for 252's is long and they tend to disappear before they even get onto the open market. 

Thanks for the reply, I'll keep y'all posted. 

[231LV]

1 hour ago, CoffeeCan said:

Chris, thanks for the offer, I've flown my 172 into Georgetown a couple of times. Nice airport, great town.

I'd like to get to know some of you Mooniacs personally as I explore this journey. There is nothing like hands-on airplane observations, and face-to-face discussions. I've talked to a couple of y'all on the phone already and y'all seem a friendly bunch, not to mention knowledgeable.

BTW, I decided to do the math as you suggested, and holy schneikies, that's a 103 mile descent from 17,000' to my airport's pattern! FWIW, I've already noticed that speed brakes are already on several 231's I'm looking at. To be honest, after a couple of talks and a long visit with David at AAA, I'm leaning toward selecting an aircraft with the best airframes, engines and turbos/intercoolers rather than looking at avionics as a priority. Just about every plane I've looked at is going to need ADS/B-out installed, so I'm going to have to spend some money on avionics pretty soon on almost any airplane I buy. So a plain steam-gauge panel with a good engine/turbo is looks more desirable than a glass cockpit at this point. 

Just remember...the ADSB mandate date of 1/1/20 is coming up which means shops will start booking out so get in line as soon as you have your plane bought and paid for...agree with your thinking....

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, 231LV said:

Having owned my 231 for about 15 years, I concur with most of what the others have said.....saying that, in my opinion (for what its worth), were I to do everything over again and start where you are I would seriously consider the 252 with the specific serial numbers which allow for the MB engine upgrade. 

All 252s have the -MB engine from the factory. Maybe you're thinking of the 220hp -SB engine?

[CaptRJM]

Having owned a 231 for over 10 years and 1000 hours I can say without hesitation that it is a fine aircraft. 

If I were in the market now I’d look for a well equipped 252. But a 231 with intercooler and Merlyn will perform almost as well.  Yes, there is a little more engine management on the 231 but, nothing a competent pilot can’t handle with some mentoring.  In a typical 4 hour flight if a total of 10 minuets is devoted to engine management I’d be surprised.  Yes, you have to tweak the MP every few minutes during the climb or descent but once you are in cruise I rarely touch anything unless I want to fine tune a little.

Id also recommend that any plane you look at have an excellent engine monitor like a JPI 830 or better.  Older JPI’s are adequate but, the newer ones are far better.  I’d also look to find one with a WAAS GPS and be ADS-B equipped. Something newer than a KMA 24 will be nice too. Yes, you can add all this but it’s better on your pocket to have the previous owner absorb a good portion of that expense. 

You can find some planes in original 1980s avionics, paint, etc.  If you like the idea of making the plane exactly what you want then that’s fine. But, in the end you may end up putting a lot more money into it than you can ever hope to recover. 

[231LV]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

All 252s have the -MB engine from the factory. Maybe you're thinking of the 220hp -SB engine?

yes....always get that confused....thanks