neilpilot Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 5 hours ago, jetdriven said: heres the FAR 43 reference Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91. I'm not certain that replacing a GNS430 with an Avidyne unit meets the intent of "Removing and replacing" in the reference above. I've always considered this section limited to replacement with the same model unit that was removed. Maybe I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 I'm not certain that replacing a GNS430 with an Avidyne unit meets the intent of "Removing and replacing" in the reference above. I've always considered this section limited to replacement with the same model unit that was removed. Maybe I'm wrong. You are reading too much into it, a GPS is not DME, transponder and it doesn’t state anything about the model of the unit, ...so my interpretation is yes it’s legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 If a 430W is installed via an STC and a IFD440 is installed via an STC, I think it falls outside of owner maintenance and into A&P IA maintenance. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, M20Doc said: If a 430W is installed via an STC and a IFD440 is installed via an STC, I think it falls outside of owner maintenance and into A&P IA maintenance. Clarence Ding Ding Ding ..... Clarence , you are correct , you must be an IA , to perform an STC , An A&P cannot even do this legally.......(if it is covered by an STC) also , the GPS / Nav , is tied into the autopilot system...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Alan Fox said: Ding Ding Ding ..... Clarence , you are correct , you must be an IA , to perform an STC , An A&P cannot even do this legally.......(if it is covered by an STC) also , the GPS / Nav , is tied into the autopilot system...... According to Avidyne, and they have paperwork on their website that confirms this: an owner is legal to swap a 430W out for a IFD440. If it’s a regular 430, though, you need a new WAAS gps antenna, so that is not legal for an owner to swap out. Edited April 1, 2018 by M016576 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, M016576 said: According to Avidyne, and they have paperwork on their website that confirms this (I’ll find the link) an owner is legal to swap a 430W out for a IFD440. If it’s a regular 430, though, you need a new WAAS gps antenna, so that is not legal for an owner to swap out. Of course it's to Avidyne's advantage to take the position that the owner/operator can make the swap under existing FARs. However, that doesn't necessarily make it legal, just a legal opinion from a very biased source. A couple years ago Avidyne CEO Schwinn was also quoted as saying "reaction from different FAA personnel has ranged from favorable to vehemently against the idea." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 hour ago, M016576 said: According to Avidyne, and they have paperwork on their website that confirms this: an owner is legal to swap a 430W out for a IFD440... What do you expect them to say! But they should know they don’t decide what’s legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 I will say it again , It is STC'd , It is illegal to install it without an IA , you cannot file the 337 for the STC , unless you are an IA ....If you install it , and you are not an IA , or an IA does not sign off the 337 and logbook , it is not a legal install....... I am an A&P , I am not an IA , I can not legally install it..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 Obviously there are opinions both directions on this. I did the swap myself using Avidyne's paperwork and am satisfied it's legal. I've been through an annual and a full panel upgrade since then. Maybe I'm ok as long as I stay out of NJ? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6758N Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: Obviously there are opinions both directions on this. I did the swap myself using Avidyne's paperwork and am satisfied it's legal. I've been through an annual and a full panel upgrade since then. Maybe I'm ok as long as I stay out of NJ? I just looked it up, this one is a little different than I as an IA would normally expect- It looks like Avidyne is getting around this by calling the swap from a 430W to a 440 as preventive maintenance and no 337 is required- so yes the pilot could do it. The pilot who performed the Nav/Com/GPS navigator exchange must log that activity in the airplane’s maintenance records (Airframe logbook). The entry must include information indicating the removal of the GNS unit, insertion and configuration of the Avidyne IFD unit, replacement of ICA and AFMS, negligible weight and balance change, dated, signed with pilot certificate number. Either use the sticker provided with the IFD or write the entry in manually. A sample is included below: The following preventive maintenance has been performed to this aircraft in accordance with 14CFR 43.3, Part 43 Appendix A and Avidyne IFD4XX & IFD5XX Series NAV/COM/GPS Navigator Exchange Guide, p/n 600-00316-000. Removed previously installed Garmin GNS4XX(W) (and/or GNS5XX(W)) and installed Avidyne IFD4XX (and/or IFD5XX) into existing Garmin radio tray(s) and performed functional checks per Sec. 3 and 4 of Avidyne IFD4XX & IFD5XX Series NAV/COM/GPS Navigator Exchange Guide, p/n 600-00316-000. HOWEVER if you were swapping from a 430 non waas, that would still require a 337 and appropriate documentation. Even swapping a 430 out for a 430W requires a 337... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 minute ago, N6758N said: I just looked it up, this one is a little different than I as an IA would normally expect- It looks like Avidyne is getting around this by calling the swap from a 430W to a 440 as preventive maintenance and no 337 is required- so yes the pilot could do it. The pilot who performed the Nav/Com/GPS navigator exchange must log that activity in the airplane’s maintenance records (Airframe logbook). The entry must include information indicating the removal of the GNS unit, insertion and configuration of the Avidyne IFD unit, replacement of ICA and AFMS, negligible weight and balance change, dated, signed with pilot certificate number. Either use the sticker provided with the IFD or write the entry in manually. A sample is included below: The following preventive maintenance has been performed to this aircraft in accordance with 14CFR 43.3, Part 43 Appendix A and Avidyne IFD4XX & IFD5XX Series NAV/COM/GPS Navigator Exchange Guide, p/n 600-00316-000. Removed previously installed Garmin GNS4XX(W) (and/or GNS5XX(W)) and installed Avidyne IFD4XX (and/or IFD5XX) into existing Garmin radio tray(s) and performed functional checks per Sec. 3 and 4 of Avidyne IFD4XX & IFD5XX Series NAV/COM/GPS Navigator Exchange Guide, p/n 600-00316-000. This is exactly what I did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, N6758N said: I just looked it up, this one is a little different than I as an IA would normally expect- It looks like Avidyne is getting around this by calling the swap from a 430W to a 440 as preventive maintenance and no 337 is required- so yes the pilot could do it. The pilot who performed the Nav/Com/GPS navigator exchange must log that activity in the airplane’s maintenance records (Airframe logbook). The entry must include information indicating the removal of the GNS unit, insertion and configuration of the Avidyne IFD unit, replacement of ICA and AFMS, negligible weight and balance change, dated, signed with pilot certificate number. Either use the sticker provided with the IFD or write the entry in manually. A sample is included below: The following preventive maintenance has been performed to this aircraft in accordance with 14CFR 43.3, Part 43 Appendix A and Avidyne IFD4XX & IFD5XX Series NAV/COM/GPS Navigator Exchange Guide, p/n 600-00316-000. Removed previously installed Garmin GNS4XX(W) (and/or GNS5XX(W)) and installed Avidyne IFD4XX (and/or IFD5XX) into existing Garmin radio tray(s) and performed functional checks per Sec. 3 and 4 of Avidyne IFD4XX & IFD5XX Series NAV/COM/GPS Navigator Exchange Guide, p/n 600-00316-000. HOWEVER if you were swapping from a 430 non waas, that would still require a 337 and appropriate documentation. Even swapping a 430 out for a 430W requires a 337... A pilot may be able to change one serial number for another serial number of the same model number of radio. Unless the GNS 430W and the IFD440 share the same STC, which they don’t. I don’t see this as a leagal change. I certainly could import one without the STC’s be noted on 337’s. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6758N Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 minute ago, M20Doc said: A pilot may be able to change one serial number for another serial number of the same model number of radio. Unless the GNS 430W and the IFD440 share the same STC, which they don’t. I don’t see this as a leagal change. I certainly could import one without the STC’s be noted on 337’s. Clarence I would normally agree here Clarence, but it appears Avidyne has found a work around for this? I would certainly hope they wouldn't publish this as a legal document on their website if the FAA had not blessed it first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, N6758N said: I would normally agree here Clarence, but it appears Avidyne has found a work around for this? I would certainly hope they wouldn't publish this as a legal document on their website if the FAA had not blessed it first... A question I will ask at Sun n Fun. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 10 hours ago, jetdriven said: heres the FAR 43 reference Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91. Is physically replacing with the Avidyne all that's necessary? I would have thought there'd need to be some notation from an IA about "undoing" the STC for the 430W? Likewise, can you use the Avidyne for IFR if it has not been signed off as tested for IFR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201er Posted April 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 Pushing the clear button during the restart didn’t help. I guess I’m going to be seeing the fox. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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