Long range tank options for M20E with bladders?

[Oliver]

We fly a Mooney M20E and would like to have long range tanks, for a total capacity of around 90 gallons. The main purpose would be an 'once in a lifetime' flight from the US to Europe and back.

Since our Mooney has been fitted with fuel tank bladders, Monroy long range tanks are no longer an option. Griggs / O&N bladders would work, but they would add only 10 gallons and are therefore too small for us. 

Are there any other option, I am not aware off?

Oliver

[Urs_Wildermuth]

64 USG should be enough on the northern route. And as Jim sais, you can get a turtle tank temporarily installed.

[Bob_Belville]

My E with 64 gallon bladders has about a 1000 nm range (no wind) with ifr reserves. ~ 8 gph, ~ 140 ktas.  

[neilpilot]

9 hours ago, Oliver said:

We fly a Mooney M20E and would like to have long range tanks, for a total capacity of around 90 gallons. The main purpose would be an 'once in a lifetime' flight from the US to Europe and back.

Save your dollars for the required EU liability coverage.  Last I checked, that was surprisingly expensive.

[MIm20c]

6 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

Save your dollars for the required EU liability coverage.  Last I checked, that was surprisingly expensive.

I wonder if higher liability coverage is needed for a round trip to Iceland?  If I could get most of the experience for half the cost I might make it happen in the next few years. 

[mike_elliott]

Or sell the E and buy CarolAnn Garratt's J. It is for sale, and has been around the world 3 times now. Has all the HF, longrange etc stuff you will need! A proven platform with a recent roller cam factory reman engine.
 

edit

I believe Peter Reimer took his E to Germany and back a couple of times, but I think he had long range tanks, maybe even a coveted "P" tube. CA's plane doesnt have a "P" tube. Im planning to go with him this summer in his Screamin' eagle.

[Piloto]

If you go via CYYR BGBW BIRK and northern part of England your longest leg would be 700nm. But strong consideration should be given to the winds conditions. Winds on this route (30 to 100Kts) can affect your range, specially on your way back to the US. A back seat 55 gallons drum will easily fit and provide enough fuel. Mooneys like the Ovation with long range tanks (130 gal total) will easily do CYYR - BIRK or CYYT - LPAZ direct.

José

[Oliver]

Thank you for you responses. I kind of expected that unless I'm OK with 64 gal., a ferry tank would be the only option. We usually plan for 150 kts @ 10 gal. / hr. I'm not sure we could do 140 kts with only 8 gal. / hr. I think 8.5 - 9 gal., would be more realistic. The longest leg would be Goose Bay CYYR - Narsarsuaq BGBW with 675 nm. The legs to Iceland and England are only minimally shorter.

We want to have a no wind, no reserve range of at least 1,000 nm with a normal cruise power setting. Assuming an average TAS of 145 kts, to account for the initial climb: 1,000 nm / 145 kts * 10 gal. = 68.9 gal.. A more economic power setting would obviously help us save a few gallons, so that 64 gal would be tight but should still work.  

I have to admit, though, that I don't know much about the installation of a ferry tank, other than that a 337 is needed and that there are few companies who do these installations. So far, I was also under the impression, that they can only be installed for a true 'ferry' flight but not for a round trip, but I'm probably wrong.

Ideally I'd prefer a permanent installation, as we regularly do long flights (e. g. Los Angeles last year, Alaska this year) or flights to airports without fuel. The M20A 14 gal under seat tank therefore also appears like a good possible solution, even though I'd rather have a total of at least 75 gal. - assuming the FAA is willing to approve such an installation. It would be hard to find used tanks, but I have the ability to weld them myself and go the 'owner-produced  part' route.

@MIm20c: My wife an I are originally from Germany, we therefore thought that it would be awesome to fly there ourselves. If this turns out to be too complicated, expensive or time consuming, we would still love to fly to Greenland and / or Iceland.

@mike_elliott: Frankly, we don't want to buy another plane, as we have just dumped close to $50k in ours for an unexpected overhaul of its low time engine and the installation of an ADS-B transponder.

@Piloto: Exactly. The possible high winds are one of the the reason why we want to have a very healthy reserve. I've been dreaming about this trip for years, read a lot about flying the northern route and followed the weather: Going east, a range of 800 nm seems to be the absolute safe minimum, going west 1,000 nm.

Oliver

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Oliver

[Oliver]

@mike_elliott: What do you mean with coveted "P" tube?

[Bob_Belville]

25 minutes ago, Oliver said:

@mike_elliott: What do you mean with coveted "P" tube?

No doubt Mike is referring to José's Pee tube. "Coveted" is a judgement, perhaps not justified, we need a poll. Pee tube/Marauder's diapers/my Prestone jug/other?

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Oliver,

in order to fly Goose-Greenland you need HF. So realistically, the route open to you is Iqualuit - Kangerlussuaq - Kulusuk - Reykjavik. These are legs of 300-400 NM. From Iceland, you can either fly direct to the UK or, if the weather allows it, land at Faroer, which cuts the distance into two.

Generally it is considered that you need about 1000 NM range to do the NATL in comfort and you need time. 64 USG should give you that. But there is no problem adding e.g. a turtlepack tank on your back seat which can easily give you more.

https://www.turtlepac.com/products/bush-plane-long-range-fuelbladder/

You can connect them to the fuel system (there are many folks who know how) or you can carry it along and transfer the fuel on the ground, e.g. where you don't have Avgas but a runway available.

You are right, the longest route on the trip is Iceland-Europe. Reikyavik to Wick is 639NM ground distance. If you divide up the legs with Vagar in between, you have 450 and 250 NM. In theory, you also have a jump off point at Hoefn (Iceland) and can cut short to Sumburgh or Kirkwall, which would shorten the leg to about 500 NM.

So there are options. Also the E-model should be able to fly these ranges easily, particularly with 64 USG. You'd have to find out the sweet spot between speed and consumption, in the C it is between 7500 and 10'000 ft with rougly 8 GPH, which results in about 135-140 kts. I have never looked at the tables of the E model, but analyzing those carefully and flight testing those values should give you insight.

With 64 USG and normal reserves, looking at a final reserve of 1 hr never to be touched, you end up with around 50 USG at top of climb. With the 150 kts/10 GPH you get 770 NM out of that, considering 20 NM climb distance. With 140 kts and the 9 GPH you get 790 NM out of it. But these are very much figures which need verifying with the book. I don't have a E performance section, if you have one, I can feed it into my dispatch sheet and look at the sweet spots for you.

You will also need to consider life raft and exposure suits.

In any event, an E can do the trip, but you need time to wait for the good weather. A turtlepack or something like this will enhance your options massively. On the other hand, after 10 hours in the plane, you might pre-advise for a chiropractic to help you out of the airplane

 

[Piloto]

For the southern route CYYT - LPAZ you will need HF radio. Here is one of my setups.

706 in Mooney4.pdf

You can also route the antenna wire along the vertical and horizontal fin without the need of the springs.

José

Edited March 31, 2018 by Piloto

[carusoam]

A few years back we had an MSer chronical the purchase of an E(?), its updates, travels, and ultimately his trip across the pond to France.

A search will probably reveal his thread....

Best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

So Neat!!!

Isn’t there a way to take the volume underneath the rear seat ant turn it into a tank? I remember seeing something like that on eBay a while ago! Did the m20a have such belly tank. Plumbing should’t be too bad. 

There are outfits in CA that specialize in the ferry tank installations. Tracy CA and  Monterey Ca. 

-matt

[Piloto]

5 hours ago, MB65E said:

So Neat!!!

Isn’t there a way to take the volume underneath the rear seat ant turn it into a tank? I remember seeing something like that on eBay a while ago! Did the m20a have such belly tank. Plumbing should’t be too bad. 

There are outfits in CA that specialize in the ferry tank installations. Tracy CA and  Monterey Ca. 

-matt

The space is too small due to the gear and flight controls linkages for any reasonable amount of fuel.

José

[MB65E]

I thought the control rods were below the wing section. I’m talking about in the wing under the rear seat. That would be a great place for a 15- 20 gal bladder. 

Probably still tight, But you are the long range tank expert!! 

-Matt

[Oliver]

According to this discussion, the space under the rear seat remained the same up to the E model: 

 

I'll try to get a better idea of what the Mooney system looks like and also give Air-Mods Flight Center a call. They seem to have experience with aluminum as well as Turtle Pac ferry tanks and the associated paperwork:   https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/ferry-tank-installations

Then, there is of course also the option of having our nicely painted wings cut open, to have additional fuel tank bladders installed. This would certainly be the easiest to operate and most proven solution, but also the one with the lowest amount of additional fuel.

@Piloto This is a nice HF radio setup!

@Urs_Wildermuth Thank you for your explanations. Very interesting and helpful!

[carusoam]

Airmods is a highly capable Mooney shop.

To add any fuel volume, Best to go the modern tried and true way... extended range tanks by adding bays in the outer wing...

Fuel is already too close to the cabin for safety. Lots of room for improvement there, Adding more to the cabin, or closer to the passengers, just makes less sense...

No cutting required to add additional volume... all done by opening existing panels. Some paint touch up may be required, depending on how careful mechanics are and how easily the panels separate... Paint shops are used to this type of work...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Oliver]

28 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Airmods is a highly capable Mooney shop.

To add any fuel volume, Best to go the modern tried and true way... extended range tanks by adding bays in the outer wing...

[...]

I didn't know that they are a Mooney shop, this makes calling them even more worthwhile.

I would like additional bays in the outer wings, but was told that this is not possible with the bladders we have in ours. Additional small bladders therefore seem to be the only inside the wing option for us. To install them, cutting would be needed.

[carusoam]

Having a discussion with the person that owns the shop is worth the effort...

https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/

Best regards,

-a-

[Urs_Wildermuth]

21 hours ago, Piloto said:

For the southern route CYYT - LPAZ you will need HF radio. Here is one of my setups.

As far as I know not only for there but also for Canada to the southern Greenland airports. Only the Frobisher-Söndre route does not require HF. Or has that changed?

[Piloto]

5 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

As far as I know not only for there but also for Canada to the southern Greenland airports. Only the Frobisher-Söndre route does not require HF. Or has that changed?

It depends on the altitude that you are flying. On my last crossing from CYYR to BIRK I never had to use the HF but I was at FL190. If you fly lower you will need HF for this route. For the CYYT to LPAZ you will need HF no matter at what altitude you are. In Canada remote areas you get your clearance via HF on the ground so trailing wire HF antennas are impractical.  Close to the artic circle latitude and above there is no SATCOM coverage so HF is a must. When properly installed HF provides reliable airborne communications. New York Oceanic has dual polarization antennas that eliminates the old fading problems of HF.

José

[Jerry Pressley]

I still have the 51.5 gallon in cabin ferry tank with experience. Made a trip around the world in 1959. First single engine,  single pilot. ever.   Meyers 200 .  not me, Peter Gluckman but he landed in the wrong airport twice. Course he did it with an Omnigator.  Be glad to sell the tank or loan it for the trip. 

Peter tried it again a year later in a Beech Bonanza with less fuel and like lots of Bonanzas it come apart in the air coming out of Japan.

Jerry Pressley