recent annual - how much of an inspection do you need

[jlunseth]

I agree that not all sellers will try to cheat you.  But if you don’t do a pre-buy, which you control, how do you know which one you are dealing with? 

[Marauder]

I agree that not all sellers will try to cheat you.  But if you don’t do a pre-buy, which you control, how do you know which one you are dealing with? 

I’d start with the shifty eyes...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Cruiser]

14 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I agree that not all sellers will try to cheat you.  But if you don’t do a pre-buy, which you control, how do you know which one you are dealing with? 

when you show up and find this.....

[Johnnybgoode]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

...
A friend just got his plane back from a well known MSC. He flew it back to find one of the inspection plates wasn’t reinstalled. Found it inside the wing. How does that happen?

...

Easily - an incomplete and improper preflight inspection performed by an imperfect human, as well as an item missed by the mechanic, also presumably an imperfect human.

Patrick

 

[amillet]

 I still have not been signed off yet four months later! @SAMFOX

I also have a 97 J.  (24-3394). Just curious as to what issues you are dealing with?

[DonMuncy]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

I’d start with the shifty eyes...

 

In my experience, some of the worst liars are some of the most honest sounding guys you will ever run into. That's why some people can sell snake oil.

[Skates97]

4 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Prebuying the seller is at least if not more important than prebuying the plane itself. 

Both at my own airport and on this board I know people I would buy a plane from without giving a formal pre purchase inspection a second thought. Unfortunately the opposite also holds true.

Jim

I have said this exact same thing before. 

[KLRDMD]

6 hours ago, Bravoman said:

I do not know why this issue is repeatedly debated. Getting a thorough prepurchase inspection, preferably of annual or greater intensity, by a mechanic of your choosing and who you know and trust is absolutely mandatory.

Mandatory for some, not all. 

[KLRDMD]

5 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Prebuying the seller is at least if not more important than prebuying the plane itself. Both at my own airport and on this board I know people I would buy a plane from without giving a formal pre purchase inspection a second thought. Unfortunately the opposite also holds true.

Absolutely ! This cannot be overemphasized. There are a LOT of airplanes I've chosen to not pursue further after sizing up the seller.

[steingar]

Mine came out of annual (and was still apart) and I got an inspection from a mechanic who'd never seen it before.  No surprises since, at least not so far.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Bravoman said:

I do not know why this issue is repeatedly debated. Getting a thorough prepurchase inspection, preferably of annual or greater intensity, by a mechanic of your choosing and who you know and trust is absolutely mandatory. Putting aside monetary issues you owe it to your family and friends who ride with you. 

With entry level long bodies starting at $150K, a few thousand should be cheap insurance.

Clarence

[rpcc]

Ok that's fine can anyone recommend someone in the Chicago area for a PPI?

[SAMFOX]

On 4/1/2018 at 11:26 AM, amillet said:

 I still have not been signed off yet four months later! @SAMFOX

I also have a 97 J.  (24-3394). Just curious as to what issues you are dealing with?

So, most of the things I am dealing with come from my unwillingness to defer maintenance...having a plane is about convenience for me so I never put the aircraft in the hangar with an open squak...I aim to maintain a 100% msn capable rate and often do preventative repairs prior to failure. More for piece of mind/convenince versus necessity.  I treat my J like we treat our 75s and 73s at work...has to be 100% reliable 100% of the time.

 

This Annual I had:

1) 4 New Cylinders (Penn Yan). Personal choice on this, IA was willing to sign off and compressions were good with (Aero 100 Plus) but had annoying amount of oil consumption. Cylinder walls slightly corroded, D2 light use. I felt comfortable after inspecting the rest of the engine with shop manager that this was best option for me. Instead of overhaul or complete rebuild.

2) Landing Gear Discs Replaced (I will keep old for emergency spares, they were still in limits performance wise but we’re aging) and Landing Gear Door adjustments...Nose gear was pressing against wheel well and polishing metal, main gear had to many washers and main gear doors where over compressed with main gear being stressed while up. Nose gear wheel was overly tight and bearings were not free spinning.

3) replaced compressed engine mounts which had been shimmed to align prop with cowl.

4) fuel injector system/servo (Avstar repaired)...this was something that I was concerned about because it had an issue that could not be overhauled and could have caused loss of power. Additionally, the long metal fuel screen had significant corrosion on the threaded cap side (the side the screen should be removed from when inspected). You could tell it had not been removed properly for years. I was told that some mechanics will remove it from the fuel line side because it is easier to get to (though not the proper way), this was obviously the case because the threaded cap was rusted nearly through the threads, super obvious. The other issue was on servo body were the spring mechanism moves the baffle of the servo, it was the improper shape and could not be repaired.

5) Had prop overhaul because of back and forth movement in one blade. After overhaul governor had a slight over speed 2785 rpm...this found after 2nd maintenance flight once they were doing final ground checks for release...Governor is being inspected/overhauled...a prop balance will accomplished once reinstalled.

There were a few other minor annoying things with how gaskets were applied and missing valve cover screws...I will give a full report once complete if anyone is interested. 

What Inlearned is it is good to get a fresh set of eyes every now and again...I have no complaints about any MSC I have used thus far but all Mechanics are different and see different things...

Tommy at Freeway Airport has been awesome and spends hours with me when I stop by to ask questions or just poke my nose around...he climbed in and around the bird with me and explained every system, how it operates, gotchas or things to look for, as well telling me what he was comfortable with signing off and not in the terms of if this was my money I would not do X-Y, but I would do Z...he made sure I put eyes on and approved every aspect of the maintenance. It has been a great experience minus the paying aspect! 

Hope to be complete in a week or so...now if the weather will cooperate too.

Tail winds...BK

[thinwing]

After reading your list...my thoughts were ( with all due respect) every single maintance item that was done ,was discretionary.Especially eye opening was the decision to overhaul prop due to blade movement...this is completely normal according to three different shops I've dealt with re McCauley blades,they simply come out with circlip pliers and a box of shims and in 5 min blade free play is gone.Same with doing a top on cylinders with light rust with good compression and no other obvious defects but oil burn.Gear pucks still in spec per manual,moter mounts shimmed ( be careful here D Maxwell has written a good article on this).Re the work on gear...I'd make real sure ,preload is on spec due to trying to tweak gear doors..the manual is pretty clear on this ,and if D Max has been maintaining and someone else is suggesting a change...well gear collapses get pretty expensive.Kudos to you for trying to be proactive...

 

[steingar]

50 minutes ago, thinwing said:

After reading your list...my thoughts were ( with all due respect) every single maintance item that was done ,was discretionary.

Hey, it's his money.

[TonyK]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Hey, it's his money.

Sure but if you were going to sleep with a prostitute in Haiti would you believe her word or would you pay for some protection.

 

sorry to drag it into the gutter.

 

[Skates97]

6 hours ago, TonyK said:

Sure but if you were going to sleep with a prostitute in Haiti would you believe her word or would you pay for some protection.

 

sorry to drag it into the gutter.

 

I think if you're considering sleeping with a prostitute in Haiti you may have already made some bad decisions... Paying for some protection will most likely not be sufficient. 

[N131MA]

On 4/2/2018 at 12:57 AM, rpcc said:

Ok that's fine can anyone recommend someone in the Chicago area for a PPI?

I recommend Gene Scheuwimer, Northwest Flyers at Schaumburg airport. MSC & straight shooter.

[SAMFOX]

On 4/3/2018 at 3:58 PM, thinwing said:

After reading your list...my thoughts were ( with all due respect) every single maintance item that was done ,was discretionary.Especially eye opening was the decision to overhaul prop due to blade movement...this is completely normal according to three different shops I've dealt with re McCauley blades,they simply come out with circlip pliers and a box of shims and in 5 min blade free play is gone.Same with doing a top on cylinders with light rust with good compression and no other obvious defects but oil burn.Gear pucks still in spec per manual,moter mounts shimmed ( be careful here D Maxwell has written a good article on this).Re the work on gear...I'd make real sure ,preload is on spec due to trying to tweak gear doors..the manual is pretty clear on this ,and if D Max has been maintaining and someone else is suggesting a change...well gear collapses get pretty expensive.Kudos to you for trying to be proactive...

 

Thinwing, No need to caveat your comment sir, though I am of a younger generation, it is not the snowflake generation :-) , a good dose of sarcasm and ridicule goes a long way in my aviation upbringing, along with instructors pulling on oxygen masks while you sight emergency action procedures from memory all while try to maintain your position on the wing!  I would 100% agree with you that the majority of the maintenance performed was discretionary and many would argue that it was money wasted. For me it was more of get ahead of it decision, because I was already committed on certain things and did not want to go back months later and re-attack things that I could have deferred. I will look for the Dmax article you mention, I believe I have read it once before but can't recall all the content. As far as the fuel servo issue, definitely not discretionary, and definitely something that should have been caught when I took the plane back to Texas for a 50 hr inspection. There is no doubt in my mind that DMax is a professional and knowledgeable mooney guy, I spent hours talking with him when I was there dropping off and picking up and really enjoyed the experience. But the reality is that DMax does not do all the maintenance himself and climb under every bird, so maybe not all his guys have his wealth of knowledge or discipline when it comes to  maintenance procedures.  This does not mean that it is not a quality shop, it definitely is is.  It just means that it is good to have a second set of eyes every now and then...no different than visiting another doctor. I will ask the preload question, and not make any assumptions...thanks for that. On  the topic of prop and engine it was all about ensuring everything is as good as it can be, not a concern that the blades were going to seperate in flight! I will admit I am not a mechanic...its my job to break'em and their job to fix'em...Thanks for the conversation, and inputs, it is all a learning experiment for me!

[thinwing]

Hey...when I read your list ,I was just concerned you were being taken advantage of...I was there once when I didn't know the difference...somebody shows you a McCauley blade with fore and aft play ( when not loaded by centrifugal forces)and it's reasonable to think " my god that can't be right!" Than a propellor guy who's not out to make a buck gives it to you straight cause he's the prop expert."no need for an overhaul we see that all the time ,we will reshim ,say 018 from 012.

[RobertGary1]

This is the root of the classic conflict between firsttime airplane buyers and long time owners selling planes. Buyers paying north of $50K expect a vehicle that is squawk free. But long time owners know that its a fool's quest to fix everything that could be fixed. 

 

-Robert

[SAMFOX]

3 hours ago, thinwing said:

Hey...when I read your list ,I was just concerned you were being taken advantage of...I was there once when I didn't know the difference...somebody shows you a McCauley blade with fore and aft play ( when not loaded by centrifugal forces)and it's reasonable to think " my god that can't be right!" Than a propellor guy who's not out to make a buck gives it to you straight cause he's the prop expert."no need for an overhaul we see that all the time ,we will reshim ,say 018 from 012.

Thinwing, thanks for being a good wingman, absolutely valued your inputs and they make perfect sense, hope you did not think I was being crass! It has been a learning event...my thoughts were 21 year young prop that has never been off or overhauled, same for other items...all original fuel system, engine etc...MSC said they were willing to sign it all off minus fuel system... I made the decision because I forwent the Pre-buy when I bought the plane so I decided to spend the money to have it all inspected and  repaired as needed now, so I would have a known starting point. Honesty I think the finding on the fuel system influenced me a little because I wanted to be certain there were no other issues. I carry precious cargo (wife and two sons) and I have lost too many friends and coworkers in this business. I don’t like to put blind trust in a machine I am unfamiliar with as I can’t just pull over on the shoulder.

As to Roberts comment I agree, if I were selling I would have just had it signed off, and informed buyer of squawks! It however baffles me on these threads that Mooney owners dump 30-50-100K into panels and smile about it but will defer maintenance and leave plans on the ramp with open write ups at the same time...probably because they know and trust their own birds! Really NDB, RMI, VOR/DME, VORTAC gives you a lot of capes!  Fix-to-Fix and circling approaches is a dead art!

In the end I now feel like I have a known staring point and peace of mind!!!

[thinwing]

Ok overhauling a 21 year prop...I get it ,but not for the reason you describe.Can I assume same for engine....21 years since o/h?How many hours total?....Maybe the overhaul should go to the engine ...you will realize more value back if you decide to sale or upgrade.Im just nervous about cracking lycoming through bolts in order to top.Ive lost 5 or 6 friends in light aircraft accidents...some just dumb stall spins,Vfr to IFR,late shoot pulls,acro flown with wrong equipment....a glider midair...ok you get the message

[gsxrpilot]

On 4/5/2018 at 11:11 AM, RobertGary1 said:

But long time owners know that its a fool's quest to fix everything that could be fixed. 

This!

We also know that replacing parts just because, is no guarantee of success. 

I don't have to fly. I fly because I enjoy it. While an engine and airframe that is safe and inspires confidence is important, and critical, a nice panel is what makes the experience of long distances in my Mooney enjoyable. 

My Mooney is not squawk free by any means. But it's safe and strong. And therefore the new panel was exactly the right upgrade at the right time for my max enjoyment.  

[SAMFOX]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:54 PM, thinwing said:

Ok overhauling a 21 year prop...I get it ,but not for the reason you describe.Can I assume same for engine....21 years since o/h?How many hours total?....Maybe the overhaul should go to the engine ...you will realize more value back if you decide to sale or upgrade.Im just nervous about cracking lycoming through bolts in order to top.

TW, All good points, no illusions of guaranteed successes!...and yes all original equipment to include fuel system. 1440 hrs on Prop, Frame, and a about 20 hours less on Engine as it was replaced by factory warranty after delivery to original owner. Started down the road with engine D2 burning about 6-8 qrts of oil per 5-7 flight hours (averaged over 1qrt/hr). I was expecting less. With the hours on the engine I was conflicted to either O/H or IRAN it. Because I intend to keep the plane, I went with the latter after having it inspected and had my cylinders built at Penn-Yan, they required new pistons. Cylinders cost me around ~800$/ea (3.2k) Which included the pistons. New Fuel Servo from Avstar was 1.6k. Prop O/H was 2.4k. I felt these were all fair prices, specifically the deal Penn Yan made me on the cylinders with the pistons.

Engine/Parts cost only with no labor etc and not counting prop, engine mounts, landing discs, aircraft procurement, insurance, etc:

18-25k depending on which shop and if they could use your cylinders...average prices

TBO is 2000 hrs at $22000 O/H = $11hr parts

Curent time is 1420 hrs so if I make TBO at 2000 hrs (no guarantee!)

580 hrs at $4800 IRAN= $8.5/hr parts

In my mind I think I can safely take this engine to beyond TBO if it is continually monitored and cared for with no intentions to sell. Not sure about folks thoughts on that but would be curious? Nothing is guaranteed, and everything comes with risk (looks like through bolt failure from your comment). 

Im sure I made a rookie mistake somewhere in my calculus but selling the aircraft has never been part of it. 

As far a gsxrpilot, I agree with the enjoyment part about modern panels and also love the toys. My bird came with just enough toys to make it enjoyable, but also has the nostalgia of challenging myself at the same time...Crosswinds, bearing pointers, and weather at mins! But then again having the terrain awareness makes it a little more fun and reduces some stress!

Cheers, BK