recent annual - how much of an inspection do you need

[rpcc]

I'm Looking at a very clean ovation that came out of annual within the last month.   Is this something that I can go without a pre buy on?

[thinwing]

Maybe...who did the inspection?...MSC?  Same shop or A+P that did year before?Most here on MS would advise a PPI regardless from a second shop....Me...if it just came out of Don Maxwells or Topgun...I'd feel ok about doing the PPI myself...

[midlifeflyer]

No. Period.

You want a pre-buy by someone who has a duty to you. I had a case involving a Mooney buyer who relied on a "new annual." After a small issue arose, the buyer's mechanic discovered bad repairs, including an unlogged, undisclosed  and badly done repair after a gear-up landing. The mechanic either missed it (though it was pretty obvious) , or just let it slide. Multiple times.

[RobertGary1]

Even if it came from Maxwells shop do you know all the squawks he found? Just because it came from Maxwells shop doesn’t mean the owner fixed any of the issues found.

annual is just an inspection; doesn’t necessarily mean stuff was fixed  

-Robert

[Yetti]

Depends on your mechanical knowledge and your ability to trace paperwork.   A PPI depends on your ability to ask someone to trace paperwork and their mechanical ability, and then how much you trust their ability.

[Guest]

If the Annual was just completed by the shop you’re going to be using then waive the PPI.  If not get the shop you will be using to do it.

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

29 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

If the Annual was just completed by the shop you’re going to be using then waive the PPI.  If not get the shop you will be using to do it.

Clarence

Will most shops release the results of the annual to the buyer? If not you’d still need a prepurchase to know the squawks  

-Robert

[rpcc]

Wouldn't the IA have checked the AD's durring the annual?  I'm guessing things that are marginal from a new buyer perspective are what you are looking for.  What are the big items - fuel tank leaks, gear pucks,  engine compressions,  corrosion of course.  

[chrisk]

1 hour ago, rpcc said:

Wouldn't the IA have checked the AD's durring the annual?  I'm guessing things that are marginal from a new buyer perspective are what you are looking for.  What are the big items - fuel tank leaks, gear pucks,  engine compressions,  corrosion of course.  

There is a world of difference between IAs.  And even with great IAs, there are those that know Mooneys and and those who are learning.  The difference is knowing where to look for the typical problems.  Is some random IA who does 1 or 2  Mooneys a year going to look up all the service bulletins?   The best IAs know what those service bulletins are, and what should be a service bulletin but isn't.

[kpaul]

People talk about this as if it is black and white, a hard yes or no.  Then will turn around and tell you that not all PPIs are the same and you could still buy a POS even with a PPI.

I bought mine without a PPI (gasp), it was less than a month post D-Max annual.  Don fielded my call and talked to me about the plane.  I have had no surprises in my two annuals since purchase.

I had a PPI on a plane prior to my current that told me I wanted nothing to do with the airplane.

So my answer is, it depends.

[MIm20c]

If you were buying a 2-3 year old ovation that would be very different then some of the airframes coming up on 25 years.  A lot can happen in 20+ years.  People spend for a ppi on 30k planes.  I’d even be more careful on a 175k purchase. 

[larryb]

While of course I would never recommend buying a plane without a PPI.... I did it myself. Same situation, there was an annual from a well known msc just 1 month prior. The owner was maintaining the plane with the same shop for his whole ownership time, 10 years or so. I inspected myself as well. Because the sale was local, it was also the same shop I used for my own maintenance post-purchase. While there were a couple issues with the plane that I figured out later, they were not of the sort that would typically be found in a ppi. One radio has intermittent low RX sensitivity, and the other radio had poor transmit range. There were no mechanical surprises and it worked out in my favor.

Prior to this, I had a deal fall through because of the PPI. In that case, I was the winner, the plane had issues the seller was not willing to fix. With this aircraft, both the seller and prior maintenance was much more sketchy.

In my current Mooney, I had a ppi/annual as part of the deal. They found a few things, fixed a few things,  got some concessions from the seller. They also missed a few things I found after. 

[gsxrpilot]

If Don Maxwell did the annual, I'd just call and talk to Don. Just like @kpaul said, he'll be straight with you and tell you exactly what was done, what wasn't, and what should have been done. Same goes for JD at SWTA. Otherwise... get a PPI.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, MIm20c said:

If you were buying a 2-3 year old ovation that would be very different then some of the airframes coming up on 25 years.  A lot can happen in 20+ years.  People spend for a ppi on 30k planes.  I’d even be more careful on a 175k purchase. 

We just imported a 3 year old Acclaim, 2 hours out of a fresh annual by a big shop.  One cracked cylinder head, corroded engine mount tubes, corroded aileron control tubes, worn out brakes, failed flap in motion checks etc, etc. and most wing inspection panels hadn’t been opened in 3 years and 600 hours.

Newer is no guarantee of success either.

Clarence

Edited March 31, 2018 by M20Doc

[StevenL757]

14 hours ago, rpcc said:

I'm Looking at a very clean ovation that came out of annual within the last month.   Is this something that I can go without a pre buy on?

In a word....?  No.

[StevenL757]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

If Don Maxwell did the annual, I'd just call and talk to Don. Just like @kpaul said, he'll be straight with you and tell you exactly what was done, what wasn't, and what should have been done. Same goes for JD at SWTA. Otherwise... get a PPI.

It honestly shouldn’t matter who did the last annual.  Any mechanic can find anything wrong with any airplane at any time...whether they came out of DM’s shop or not.  The Ovation and Acclaim are very different animals than their predecessors, and have unique little Easter eggs and such that need to be gone over.  Some shops are better-suited to work on those more advanced aircraft than others, so in the OP’s case, he should have a proper prebuy done no matter what.

Steve

[rpcc]

Thanks everyone.  Thinking about using these guys - www.northwestflyers.com .  Any other recommendations in the area?

[SAMFOX]

RPCC, In the end it boils down to what risk you are comfortable with taking. However, I would recommend if you are not going to do a PBI then at a minimum that you have an independent source; someone with mooney knowledge do a limited inspection of the big items, if you feel a full PBI is not right for you.  As others have mentioned find someone that knows the model because not everything is equal. Additionally, as any aircraft owner can tell you certain items can be signed off with deferred  mx to next inspections, etc...so even though you are on a fresh annual it does not mean your next one wont run you a small fortune!

I can only speak from my experience within the last 12 months, and my scenario was similar to the same, the details was Broker was All American, Mx for last 10 years was DMAx, all prior Mx was MSC since rolled out of Kerrville,  recent annual w/less than 5 hrs flt time, aircraft always hangared. Gasp, Gasp I bought the aircraft sight unseen, (I would not recommend this, lost a few years and hairs) and took a ton of heat from peers and peeps. What I did to mitigate was to have a Mooney guy independently review the logs, and another independent Mooney guy out of San Antonio, go kick the tires for me and look at the plane in person. He sent current pictures, and gave me his written professional opinion short of the PBI (cost me around $300). Now in the end it worked for me but I can say I went into annual 1 Dec 17 and I still have not been signed off yet four months later! Mostly my fault but there were things that came up, that I was disappointed about, because I would have thought that with a lifetime of MSC Mx, the things that were found would not have been an issue. 

To make this long story short, I would not buy sight unseen again, but I still would have accepted a little risk with  less a thorough inspection...though I would not influence anyone to do the same!!! best of luck to you, and I hope you find a SAMFox Mooney!!!

 

[jlunseth]

17 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

No. Period.

You want a pre-buy by someone who has a duty to you. I had a case involving a Mooney buyer who relied on a "new annual." After a small issue arose, the buyer's mechanic discovered bad repairs, including an unlogged, undisclosed  and badly done repair after a gear-up landing. The mechanic either missed it (though it was pretty obvious) , or just let it slide. Multiple times.

Agree.  Don’t fall for that one.  Have someone who is working for you tell you whether the aircraft is “extremely clean.” The seller decides what gets done during the annual.  He just wants to get the most money he can out of the aircraft at the time of sale.  So corners get cut, sometimes big corners.

[Danb]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

We just imported a 3 year old Acclaim, 2 hours out of a fresh annual by a big shop.  One cracked cylinder head, corroded engine mount tubes, corroded aileron control tubes, worn out brakes, failed flap in motion checks etc, etc. and most wing inspection panels hadn’t been opened in 3 years and 600 hours.

Newer is no guarantee of success either.

Clarence

wow a basically new plane someone didn't take care of

[carusoam]

Two things to recognize...

1) The annual does one thing... protect your physical being by demonstrating the minimum requirements of airworthiness...

2) The PPI is designed around protecting your financial being...

They have a lot in common, but not everything is covered by both...

The PPI also has some flexibility...  how extensive will you afford..?

Who does your PPI is in the category of how extensive, above...

Putting all of your eggs in one basket... it is best to minimize your risk...

• Extensive high end maintenance history...
• Fewer years/hours on the plane...
• Stored indoors in a dry environment...
• great log books...
• Flown with care, vs. flown as it can be...

M20Doc, has  ppclearly demonstrated that even with a plane at minimum risk, it still makes good financial sense to get a good PPI.

There isn’t any feel good emotion about spending amus on something like insurance and PPIs...

But, when you are on the other side.  You escaped a tragedy by not buying an expensive/nightmare plane.  Or you got a plane in the good condition that you expected.

The third situation to be aware of... is the PPI didn’t find a problem, and you get stuck having to pay for it later... this is part of real life. Prepare to defend against it before it happens...

I have a great mechanic, but would I expect him to protect my financial well being?  Probably, but he is going to need to ask me a bunch of questions that are different than my annual check list.

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy, If it can happen, it will happen, reasoning...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Bravoman]

I do not know why this issue is repeatedly debated. Getting a thorough prepurchase inspection, preferably of annual or greater intensity, by a mechanic of your choosing and who you know and trust is absolutely mandatory. Putting aside monetary issues you owe it to your family and friends who ride with you. 

[mike_elliott]

22 hours ago, jlunseth said:

He just wants to get the most money he can out of the aircraft at the time of sale.  So corners get cut, sometimes big corners.

Not all sellers are like this. I have often said if you want to sell your plane fast, simply price it at what you, the most knowledgeable person of the planes warts and curves, yourself would pay for it. A seller has to be honest with himself here. Be upfront about all the planes warts and treat the prospective buyer like he has a brain and can think for himself, and like a person who doesn't like to be shafted.or conned.

Now if a buyer wants to further "lowball", then he risks loosing a good plane at a fair price if the seller decides not to fund his want. If the PPI turns up airworthiness items, these should be on the seller. Disclosed warts should be on the buyer. The buyer needs to remember he is buying a used plane and will need to accept a standard of less than new unless he is willing to pay new money.

[glafaille]

I once evaluated a very nice and well equipped C model, offered for sale by a professor employed by a state university.  He represented the engine as “mid time”.  Upon inspection of the logs I discovered that the engine was almost 1000 hours past TBO.  When he bought the aircraft several years prior, he told his mechanic how many hours were on the engine and the mechanic took it as gospel, and from that point on he used that number when recording TBO at annuals.  I confronted the mechanic with my findings and he agreed that the engine was well past TBO and all his entries were mistaken.

Despite this, the professor was unwilling to budge one dollar off his asking price, convinced that someone less sophisticated would be dazzled enough by the cosmetic condition to neglect a thorough logbook review..

Lots of funny stuff going on out there with old airplanes.

[Marauder]

I don’t have much to add other than what I have seen in the 28 annuals I have had done on my plane, including a number by Mooney Service Centers. Even the “experts” miss things. These shops employ mechanics who range from meticulous craftsmen to junkyard hacks (not intending to take a shot at the A&Ps or IAs on this site) but like all professions, there are those who care and who are good at what they do and others who aren’t.

A friend just got his plane back from a well known MSC. He flew it back to find one of the inspection plates wasn’t reinstalled. Found it inside the wing. How does that happen?

If you are buying a plane, you need to make sure you do your diligence upfront and not trust that others did it right in the past.


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