Overhaul vacuum A/H or spring for Aspen MFD?

[231LV]

OK....another brain twister for the group....my Century vacuum driven A/H was slow to erect this am on a flight. I realize this is the beginning of the O/H decision as it won't fix itself. I have an Aspen Evolution 1000 PFD installed and love it. The Aspen Evolution 1000 MFD can serve as an independent redundancy to the PFD plus gives me maps, terrain, navigation, etc etc. I like the idea of ditching my vacuum A/H as that will make my cockpit an all glass electronic set-up.... here's the catch....the Aspen MFD will run around $7-8k without install....used, they are around $4k.....overhauling the A/H is less than $1k but keeps me dependent upon vacuum pump and stand-by pump...if either of those crap out, the "synthetic" o/h cost will go beyond the cost of the Aspen.....I'm thinking upgrading to the Aspen MFD is the way to go.....can someone check my thinking?

[MIm20c]

The mfd will not replace your AI in this situation. You can drop the ASI and altimeter but not the AI. If you want to the ea100 can replace your current AI and a cheap used lifesaver electric AI could be used instead. 

Also you need the mfd1000 with the external battery to drop the ASI / altimeter and I’ve never seen a used one for sale. The beauty of that is many can talk the shop into a G5 with the external battery mfd. 

[One Whiskey Hotel]

But if I’m not mistaken, a G5 can’t drive a KFC200, if you have one. The Aspen can. Garmin’s great and all, but unless you’re really falling backwards into a beanbag full of cash with a G500 or something exotic like that, the Aspen is probably the better way to go.

As far as overhauling the gyro, I’d vote to skip it. It’s just another mechanical point of failure, waiting to be chased again with more good money after bad.

Also, doesn’t your backup artificial horizon need to be air driven? If I recall, the STC doesn’t allow for electric backup artificial horizons.

Edited March 29, 2018 by One Whiskey Hotel

[231LV]

couple of good questions which I need to verify but the last time I discussed this with a shop, I thought I heard them tell me the Aspen 1000 MFD will satisfy the backup redundancy because it has a separate battery from the main buss and the Aspen 1000 PFD. I don't know the specifics of the STC or whether it mandates an air driven backup. Aspen claims the 1000 MFD serves as redundant PFD

[MIm20c]

38 minutes ago, One Whiskey Hotel said:

Also, doesn’t your backup artificial horizon need to be air driven? If I recall, the STC doesn’t allow for electric backup artificial horizons.

You can keep the air driven or replace with an L3 500, Sandia (with field approval), G5 (with a kind installer), a lifesaver (with backup battery), or any electrically driven unit if you have dual batteries/alternator/bus. 

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, 231LV said:

couple of good questions which I need to verify but the last time I discussed this with a shop, I thought I heard them tell me the Aspen 1000 MFD will satisfy the backup redundancy because it has a separate battery from the main buss and the Aspen 1000 PFD. I don't know the specifics of the STC or whether it mandates an air driven backup. Aspen claims the 1000 MFD serves as redundant PFD

It replaces everything but the AI as a PS failure would take out both units (single point of failure). 

[gsxrpilot]

Correct, the Aspen MFD won't count towards removing the vacuum system.

I have an Aspen PFD Pro, a Garmin G5 (friendly installer) and no more vacuum system. The Aspen MFD does provide redundancy against the failure of the PFD. But if the pitot static fails, both units go down and thus the need for an AI independent of the pitot static.

[kris_adams]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Correct, the Aspen MFD won't count towards removing the vacuum system.

I have an Aspen PFD Pro, a Garmin G5 (friendly installer) and no more vacuum system. The Aspen MFD does provide redundancy against the failure of the PFD. But if the pitot static fails, both units go down and thus the need for an AI independent of the pitot static.

so want to get rid of my vacuum system as well.  I'll do this before the next pump replacement (hopefully)

[231LV]

So the Garmin G5 allows one to eliminate the vacuum system? I didn't realize the P/S represented a single point failure for the Aspen but now I understand. Thanks for the explanation!

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by 231LV

[MIm20c]

33 minutes ago, 231LV said:

So the Garmin G5 allows one to eliminate the vacuum system? I didn't realize the P/S represented a single point failure for the Aspen but now I understand. Thanks for the explanation!

 

The Garmin G5 is not technically qualified for that position but many shops are getting approval for it. However, the G5 is not certified primary or backup for the altitude and airspeed display. This means you need to need to get the MFD with external battery along with the G5, use the L3 500 which is a certified backup, or leave the steam altimeter and ASI in the panel. 

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The Garmin G5 is not technically qualified for that position but many shops are getting approval for it. However, the G5 is not certified primary or backup for the altitude and airspeed display. This means you need to need to get the MFD with external battery along with the G5, use the L3 500 which is a certified backup, or leave the steam altimeter and ASI in the panel. 

Correct. I elected to keep the ASI and Altimeter as the Altimeter is required for the Alt pre-select with my KFC150. That meant that for me, the Aspen MFD would only let me remove the ASI. And that wasn't enough to justify it for me. 

If I was doing it again, I'd probably spring for the L3 500 and drop the ASI.

[231LV]

Would a lifesaver with  battery backup allow me to nix the vacuum system as one early poster stated? I understand the second Aspen unit won't solve my initial problem (which is a failing vacuum AI) and since I must address this first, my next priority is for an AI and I agree that pouring good money after bad on a vacuum instrument may be cheaper in the short run but much more expensive when a vacuum pump or stand-by pump fails. The G5, strictly speaking, won't legally solve my problem since it is not a certified backup (though it is a pretty cool instrument)...the L3 500 solves all my issues but at a considerable cost which leaves the Lifesaver at a reduced expense provided it is a legal back-up. Is it?

[gsxrpilot]

14 minutes ago, 231LV said:

Would a lifesaver with  battery backup allow me to nix the vacuum system as one early poster stated? I understand the second Aspen unit won't solve my initial problem (which is a failing vacuum AI) and since I must address this first, my next priority is for an AI and I agree that pouring good money after bad on a vacuum instrument may be cheaper in the short run but much more expensive when a vacuum pump or stand-by pump fails. The G5, strictly speaking, won't legally solve my problem since it is not a certified backup (though it is a pretty cool instrument)...the L3 500 solves all my issues but at a considerable cost which leaves the Lifesaver at a reduced expense provided it is a legal back-up. Is it?

Assuming you put in an Aspen PFD, there are any number of legal options to back up the Aspen. I'm not sure the lifesaver is one, but someone will be along who knows. You might check with your installer to see if he's comfortable with the G5 as a backup. Many are getting it done that way. Another option would be an RC Allen electric AI. They have a few that would work as the backup to the Aspen.

[231LV]

Well, I already have the Aspen Evolution 1000 PFD installed....

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, 231LV said:

Would a lifesaver with  battery backup allow me to nix the vacuum system as one early poster stated? I understand the second Aspen unit won't solve my initial problem (which is a failing vacuum AI) and since I must address this first, my next priority is for an AI and I agree that pouring good money after bad on a vacuum instrument may be cheaper in the short run but much more expensive when a vacuum pump or stand-by pump fails. The G5, strictly speaking, won't legally solve my problem since it is not a certified backup (though it is a pretty cool instrument)...the L3 500 solves all my issues but at a considerable cost which leaves the Lifesaver at a reduced expense provided it is a legal back-up. Is it?

Backing up a little bit, many shops will slide over the current AI when doing a single Aspen install. This provides an independent backup that satisfies the STC and allows the old AI to continue providing attitude output information to your autopilot (if needed).

My guess is you do not have a ea100 installed with your aspen display. This is an expensive item to add after the fact. 

IMO these are your four options (if your AP requires attitude source information). 

1. Overhaul the AI and be done for now. Standby vac systems can be bought cheap since everyone is removing them now. 

2.  Install an ea100 and a used lifesaver w/battery backup or a G5. You need to keep the ASI and altimeter with this option  

3. Install a ea100 and L3 500 and you can remove all the old gauges unless you have an encoding altimeter in which case you might want to keep it  

4. Install a mfd1000 with external battery, ea100, and a lifesaver w/battery or g5. This is a nice option because you can connect the ea100 to the mfd1000 display.  AP is flying off one AHRS and you are monitoring the other AHRS.  Also if you have a failure the backup display will be more familiar.

 

[231LV]

Thanks for this invaluable info...really good to get educated! Another quick question....I reviewed my installation log book when the Aspen 1000 PFD was installed back in 2014. There was no mention of an Ea100 installation but the log reflected that the autopilot was tied to the Garmin 430. My question is, does the autopilot rely on the vacuum AI or the 430? If the former, it sounds like an Ea100 is required to remove the vacuum system (along with certified backup electric AI)...if the later, is an Ea100 even required?

[gsxrpilot]

33 minutes ago, 231LV said:

Thanks for this invaluable info...really good to get educated! Another quick question....I reviewed my installation log book when the Aspen 1000 PFD was installed back in 2014. There was no mention of an Ea100 installation but the log reflected that the autopilot was tied to the Garmin 430. My question is, does the autopilot rely on the vacuum AI or the 430? If the former, it sounds like an Ea100 is required to remove the vacuum system (along with certified backup electric AI)...if the later, is an Ea100 even required?

You either have a Rate based autopilot that relies on the turn coordinator or an Attitude based autopilot that relies on the AI.  For the Aspen to provide the Attitude to the autopilot, you need the EA100. It's likely that your vacuum driven AI is still providing attitude information to your autopilot.

So to remove the vacuum system, you'll need to replace your vacuum driven AI. That can be the Aspen, but it will need the EA100 to interface with the autopilot.

[Marauder]

OK....another brain twister for the group....my Century vacuum driven A/H was slow to erect this am on a flight. I realize this is the beginning of the O/H decision as it won't fix itself. I have an Aspen Evolution 1000 PFD installed and love it. The Aspen Evolution 1000 MFD can serve as an independent redundancy to the PFD plus gives me maps, terrain, navigation, etc etc. I like the idea of ditching my vacuum A/H as that will make my cockpit an all glass electronic set-up.... here's the catch....the Aspen MFD will run around $7-8k without install....used, they are around $4k.....overhauling the A/H is less than $1k but keeps me dependent upon vacuum pump and stand-by pump...if either of those crap out, the "synthetic" o/h cost will go beyond the cost of the Aspen.....I'm thinking upgrading to the Aspen MFD is the way to go.....can someone check my thinking?

I apologize that I haven’t read all the details carefully. I have an Aspen 2000 system. Here are the givens;

- If you purchase a MFD 1000 with the extended battery pack, you will still need to retain your AI but can remove the airspeed and altimeter. The VSI could be removed with the PFD installation.
- Like my STEC, I think you still need the primary AP reference in the plane. In my plane that is the STEC turn coordinator. In your case, it is the AI.
- The EA100 is an option on the Aspen PFD but it is used primarily on the Bendix King APs. Your Century requires the ACU and I would be surprised to find they didn’t install the ACU since it is needed for the analog radios. The EA100 is indicated as an option for the Century series. I am not sure how the EA100 is used relative to the ACU but it would be worthwhile to call Aspen or an avionics shop to see what extra functions it provides.
- If you are set on removing your vacuum system, I think the limitation comes down to alternatives for your vacuum AI. In the case of my STEC, the vacuum could be removed because the AP is all electric.

As for the MFD functionality, I absolutely love my MFD. Even more than the PFD. In addition to the PFD redundancy, the ability to setup the MFD with multiple screens is a great function.





And even if I electe to stay on the primary Nav Page, all of the FIS-B and TIS-B is overlaid.




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[carusoam]

Marauder,

What is next for the panel that has nearly every base covered...?

Add Synthetic vision option?

Update the perfectly good Aspen system to a newer version?

 

Paul,

Great brief explanation on rate based and attitude based APs that are in our Mooneys, and when it is important to have an EA100.  

 

I think I heard Peter ordering an I-watch with an app to simulate the face of a nice Swiss time piece.... listening closely, he’ll hear the electronic tick, tick, tick... of course, paying for the app to cover the IP of the Swiss company...  

 

Best rgeards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Marauder,
What is next for the panel that has nearly every base covered...?
Add Synthetic vision option?
Update the perfectly good Aspen system to a newer version?
 
Paul,
Great brief explanation on rate based and attitude based APs that are in our Mooneys, and when it is important to have an EA100.  
 
I think I heard Peter ordering an I-watch with an app to simulate the face of a nice Swiss time piece.... listening closely, he’ll hear the electronic tick, tick, tick... of course, paying for the app to cover the IP of the Swiss company...  
 
Best rgeards,
-a-

My personal mission this summer is to FLY and park any further upgrades until the Fall. Lost a lot of flying last year with the last upgrade.

BTW - SVT and AoA (both of them - CYA 100 and Aspen) are already in the panel. If I do anything, it will be firmware updates.




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[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, 231LV said:

Thanks for this invaluable info...really good to get educated! Another quick question....I reviewed my installation log book when the Aspen 1000 PFD was installed back in 2014. There was no mention of an Ea100 installation but the log reflected that the autopilot was tied to the Garmin 430. My question is, does the autopilot rely on the vacuum AI or the 430? If the former, it sounds like an Ea100 is required to remove the vacuum system (along with certified backup electric AI)...if the later, is an Ea100 even required?

The 430 is providing navigational information to the AP but is not helping to keep the plane upright. I’m pretty sure the century AP is attitude based so you will need the ea100 to output this information. 

[Piloto]

Slow gyro erection is very much related to low vacuum. Check vacuum suction at altitude, if below 5"Hg have the vacuum regulator adjusted to 5.5" or replace the pump. Check also for kinks on the vacuum hoses.

José

[jetdriven]

On 4/2/2018 at 4:59 PM, MIm20c said:

The 430 is providing navigational information to the AP but is not helping to keep the plane upright. I’m pretty sure the century AP is attitude based so you will need the ea100 to output this information. 

Sounds like the price to dump the gyro attitude indicator is going to be hellishly expensive. EA100 and a standby glass AI or another Aspen?

500$ and a fresh overhaul and you’ll be good for 500 hours.  1000 if you have a CV1J4 air filter. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by jetdriven

[MIm20c]

15 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Sounds like the price to dump the gyro attitude indicator is going to be hellishly expensive. EA100 and a standby glass AI or another Aspen?

500$ and a fresh overhaul and you’ll be good for 500 hours.  1000 if you have a CV1J4 air filter. 

The E5 / ea100 combo might actually give the ki300 good competition if it’s ever released. 

[231LV]

Got a quote from a shop after discussing and Ea100 is numero uno, then a electric backup AI and finally a 1000 MFD....with labor.....$20k.....hellishly expensive