Aspen / Autopilot issues

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, m20kmooney said:

This is hate speech. How is it that you feel this way about one manufacturer?

Deleted my response.

I will have to find somewhere to write "I will not feed the troll" a hundred times or so.

.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Andy95W

[MIm20c]

I pretty much feel like I bend over buying anything aviation (or medical, etc) related.  Even products with the big Apple stamped on them get people ruffled up...I just wait until the price drops to 1/3 new (~3 years). 

Not everyone needs to be a zealot with a g3x in front of them. However, I would be in line to get one if it was needed. 

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

I can’t even imagine where we in GA would be if it wasn’t for Garmin! 

Just the opposite. GA would be just fine without Garmin, someone else would have filled the void.

With everyone having a portable GPS on their phone and the portable Car GPS business non-existent, I can’t imagine where Garmin would be without General Aviation.

 

[carusoam]

Troll feed...

1) Garmin is falling behind in the technical race...

2) Their new product... A GPS equipped transponder with ADSB attributes... big whoop... Any MSer could have dreamt that up.  Hey wait... didn’t L3 do that already.

3) Avidyne has been crushing it when it comes to modern GPS attributes.  Would you like a touch screen with that or a WiFi keyboard?

4) Big G is pulling back on the reigns... no out reach to customers on social media... to find G, one has to go find Trek at that Brand B site...

5) Commando marketing is the latest style Big G is using... feed a troll with ‘inside information’

6) The troll gets info, feels he has been awarded status... gains followers... generates ‘influencer’ status....

7) Taken too far... can become an annoyance for residents of a usually non-commercial site...

8) Go Big G... what’s next? Got to have something better than a copy of a JPI engine monitor... or that imperfect copy of a PMA audio panel...

9) How about some affordability attributes?  Cut the costs, not the attributes...

10) Those Aspen Max screens are a giant leap forwards for an already powerful, highly integrate-able, nav display...

11) Work on that integration thing... the consumer only wins when he has choices...

12) Getting locked into one supplier doesn’t agree with many people’s mode of updating their plane...

13) Big G has not been a leader when it comes to error free plans. From waas updates for the premium G1000 system that took years longer than promised to solve... to WiFi connectivity, that may or may not be solved yet...

14) Avionics are an imperfect world of constant fluidity...

15) I want to be looking forward to getting an avionics upgrade, not dreading making those decisions...

16) Imagine if BK started using the other leaders in the industry's products... instead of getting their aging models...   Imagine BK becoming the leader in integrated avionics.... 

17) Now... Let the troll feed some ideas back to the mothership...  

 

PP thoughts only, my panel hasn’t been upgraded in nearly 20years... 2020 is getting closer...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

24 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

nt, I can’t imagine where Garmin would be without General Aviation.

They’d be just fine.  GA only accounts for ~8% of their bottom line.  Source: their last 10Q

Edited April 28, 2019 by M016576

[flyboy0681]

5 hours ago, Cruiser said:

Fortunately, those are not the only choices.

Garmin certainly is the main avionics source. IF you want all Garmin panel and don't mind paying for it, they are a great choice.

I found an ad from 1982 for the King KNS 80. At the time it sold for $8,575, which adjusted for inflation is $21,885.00 in today's dollars. A GTN 750 costs less than that.

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 hours ago, Cruiser said:

....Garmin certainly is the main avionics source. IF you want all Garmin panel and don't mind paying for it, they are a great choice.

Time was we were trying to get all King Silver Crown boxes in our panel.  

[Andy95W]

10 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I found an ad from 1982 for the King KNS 80. At the time it sold for $8,575, which adjusted for inflation is $21,885.00 in today's dollars. A GTN 750 costs less than that.

 

 

A valid point, but not really that incredible. How much did your first home PC cost?  How much would it be worth today?

[flyboy0681]

11 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

A valid point, but not really that incredible. How much did your first home PC cost?  How much would it be worth today?

Valid point but PC's are a consumer item whereas avionics are limited production specialty items.  Almost all consumer goods and services go down in price over time. I recently came across a 1967 ad for TWA touting its JFK to LAX service. Cost of that 707 coach ticket was the equivalent of $1,575 today.

Like Jerry just said, time was we were looking to fill our panel with every Silver Crown gizmo available. King couldn't come out with them fast enough.

[Cruiser]

36 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I found an ad from 1982 for the King KNS 80. At the time it sold for $8,575, which adjusted for inflation is $21,885.00 in today's dollars. A GTN 750 costs less than that.

 

 

here is the applicable cost comparison for today's avionics

Not only is the IFD540 easier to use, the IFD540 provides a better value.

	Avidyne IFD540	Garmin GTN750
Fully-Featured Price	$15,999	$28,044*
3D Exocentric Synthetic Vision	Included	Not Available
Bluetooth Hardware	Included	Only available with external Flightstream. Add $549
WiFi Hardware	Included	Only available with Flightstream 510  Add $1,499
Bluetooth Keyboard	Included	Not Available
IFD100 App/Controller	Included	Not Available
Forward Looking Terrain Alerting – (FLTA)	Included	Only available with TAWS Upgrade. Add $7,995
Required Terrain Clearance Alerting – (RTC)	Included	Only available with TAWS Upgrade.
Install Kit + Tray	Included	Included
SD Card	N/A	Add $555
Color Terrain Awareness	Included	Included
Jeppesen Charts - Unlock	Included	Add $1,995
Suggested List Price	$15,999	$16,000

[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

here is the applicable cost comparison for today's avionics

Our GTN 750 cost $18k installed and included two SD cards (are they really charging for them now?).  We didn't opt for TAWS and get the government issued charts feature with out annual subscription. We did have a Flightstream 210 installed a few years ago.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, M016576 said:

They’d be just fine.  GA only accounts for ~8% of their bottom line.  Source: their last 10Q

They had $3.347 Billion in sales in 2018. If GA wasn't there in 2019 and their sales went down by 8% or $270,000,000 they'd be looking for a new CEO.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that their margins are much greater in their Aviation division than in the rest of the company.

[M016576]

34 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

They had $3.347 Billion in sales in 2018. If GA wasn't there in 2019 and their sales went down by 8% or $270,000,000 they'd be looking for a new CEO.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that their margins are much greater in their Aviation division than in the rest of the company.

They are still wildly profitable without GA- which was the question you asked.. “that you can’t imagine where garmin would be without GA.”.  Not whether the CEO would lose his job if they weren’t profitable (i do agree, by the way, if their aviation segment was operating at a loss, the CEO would be forced to “do something”... you can tell they are doing OK though- new products keep hitting the street).

youre correct on the second statement- according to their last ER- their gross margin on all aviation products is ridiculously high at 74%.  None of the other sectors comes close to that level of gross margin.  Their marine division, which accounts for 15% of their operating income, has 59% gross margin... just for comparison.

if you look at volumes, though- it’s their wearbles and outdoor products that are really moving the most units.  Gross margins are lower on those products- but they have economies of scale working for them.

only autos are operating at a loss.

edit- on further thought IRT their gross margins on aviation products..  seems like Garmin has a ton of pricing power available.. if they ever wanted to “close the noose” on the other manufacturers- they could drop the prices on their units significantly (30%-ish?) and still be profitable.  Makes me wonder if there is some sort of “hidden agreement” between the manufacturers to keep prices where they are... or perhaps all their pricing is derived from % of higher cost hull values and their enterprise customers in part 121/135, and or globally.  What’s a new TBM cost these days, 2.5 million?  25K for an avionics upgrade seems like an afterthought in relation to that.  Yet we all pay the same price for panel stuff... whether we have a 35K C model, or a 300K acclaim...

Edited April 28, 2019 by M016576

[LANCECASPER]

41 minutes ago, M016576 said:

What’s a new TBM cost these days, 2.5 million?  

4.15 Million for the TBM 940. An average equipped Piper M600 is over $3 Million.

[larrynimmo]

I reluctantly am getting into this "pissing match"....I do like my two year old Garmin GTN-650.  It is very intuitive and powerful.  Recently when I had failures of my vacuum HSI, AI, and my altimeter transducer, I decided to put my money into an E5....the absolute deciding item was that the G5's are not compatible with my "legacy, analog" Century 41 autopilot.  The system was quite pricy including an AE-100, ACu2, and a Deklin to handle AI guidance, HSI gps supervision and it works.  If I were going to do this all over again, I would wait for the Trutrack autopilots to come out, but I would buy the Avidyne 540 with the included L3 ngt9000 transducer and install the E5 for AI/HSI.

My down side about the Garmin GTN-650...if you are going to fly IFR you need to upload/download your flight plan...you have to spend the $1,500 to buy Flightstream 510.  This feature is built into the Avidyne...When you look at the total package, Avidyne just blows Garmin out of the water.

Oh, if you look at my picture I have a "back-up" AI....a Garmin G5....when my avionics installer ordered it, and told Garmin that it was being used as a back up, the Garmin rep was highly offended....oh well...I never even look at the G5.

[m20kmooney]

On 4/28/2019 at 1:02 PM, LANCECASPER said:

GA would be just fine without Garmin, someone else would have filled the void.

Who? And where are they? 

Edited April 30, 2019 by m20kmooney

[flyboy0681]

Aviation Consumer has a timely featurette on page 16 of the new May issue on how Garmin took over the avionics business.

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

Who? And where are they? 

First, you are ignoring the words "would have".

However since you brought it up, nature abhors a vacuum or void. Garmin seized an opening and filled that void as navigation was transitioning from land-based to satellite-based.

Had Garmin not stepped up, Apollo was there and in many ways was leaps and bounds ahead of Garmin before Garmin bought them from UPS. The Apollo CNX80 was the first approach certified WAAS GPS. In the mid-late 90's King was producing the KLN series. The KLN90A was revolutionary as the first enroute certified GPS. The KLN90B was revolutionary as the first approach certified GPS. Trimble, Northstar, etc, etc. Avidyne has been around 25 years and had the first certified OEM installed PFD and MFD, the Entegra, before Garmin had the G1000.

Here's the bottom line: As good as Garmin is, any of these other systems that are here now or would have been had there been a larger opening, will still get you to your destination at exactly the same time as a Garmin.

[mwilton1]

Sorry Everyone, I have been re-miss in my postings lately. We figured this one out. Turns out that two wires were incorrect in the set up, so the Aspen was thinking that altitude was attitude and vice versa. Mechanics talked to Aspen, traced it within the hour. AP and Aspen are working nicely now.

[carusoam]

Interesting follow-up mw!

Better late than never. -mom

Best regards,

-a-