LANCECASPER Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 This unfortunate accident is a reminder to me of how important following a pre-takeoff checklist is. We all get anxious to launch. But take-offs are optional, landings are mandatory. A simple GUMPS takes care of the landing, but there are a lot more things to check to make sure that the airplane is ready to fly, such as "where am I going to put this down when I lose an engine just after take-off?" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 We are still trying to receive confirmation that this was in fact the plane owner Gordon Holley that perished and in fact if he is survived by his wife/SO Patricia Holley. If anyone knows for a fact that it was indeed Gordon who was in the plane, please let me know. I have reached out to Jolie and Phil Corman to see if they knew him and they did not. Perhaps one of the other California pilots knows Gordon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Nice work, Mike. It is greatly appreciated. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 This accident was on my mind today as the wife and I flew the 252 down to the Texas coast to visit friends. I couldn't help but think what if the seat gave way just as I rotated or during the initial couple of hundred feet in the climb. So I made a small change to my takeoff technique. Instead of keeping my hand on the throttle/prop/mixture during the climb, at rotation (V1) I moved my right hand to the center windshield post. It's easy to hold on to and I'm confident if the seat gave way, I could hold myself up on that post and not pull on the yoke. Once established in the climb, the autopilot takes over and the seat breaking away wouldn't have any negative effect. Thoughts?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 11 hours ago, carusoam said: Nice work, Mike. It is greatly appreciated. Best regards, -a- Thanks Anthony, it is all possible because of the generosity of the people who attend and/or donate at/to the Mooney Summit, We still have not received verification, as the coroner is waiting for the DNA tests to come back before releasing the name of the deceased.We can all speculate on who it was, but we wont act until we know. Speaking of speculating, Guys, do grab that center post and really make sure your seat is LOCKED prior to taking to the runway. The Cessna seat AD that came to be was because of the death of Pauline Genung way back in the 80's or 90's when she, a 4-9" flight instructor, had the seat slip on takeoff at 50' AGL at KEYE. She was the first wife of my ex father in law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: This accident was on my mind today as the wife and I flew the 252 down to the Texas coast to visit friends. I couldn't help but think what if the seat gave way just as I rotated or during the initial couple of hundred feet in the climb. So I made a small change to my takeoff technique. Instead of keeping my hand on the throttle/prop/mixture during the climb, at rotation (V1) I moved my right hand to the center windshield post. It's easy to hold on to and I'm confident if the seat gave way, I could hold myself up on that post and not pull on the yoke. Once established in the climb, the autopilot takes over and the seat breaking away wouldn't have any negative effect. Thoughts?? Paul, when I first watched Joey Osborne's video of our arrival into SnF 5 years ago I was struck with how many times I checked the security of the seat latch. It's a habit form over thousands of hours in my Mooneys. (I am closer to 5'4 than 6'4 and I cannot reach much of anything except the yoke if the seat is all the way back. I can't reach the post, I use the bottom of the panel structure for moving the seat forward. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said: (I am closer to 5'4 than 6'4 and I cannot reach much of anything except the yoke if the seat is all the way back. I can't reach the post, I use the bottom of the panel structure for moving the seat forward. ) I'm there with you. I can't reach the post if the seat is all the way back. But I can reach it and hold on to it when the seat is in the proper position for me. So I thought I'd grab ahold of it during the take-off and keep hold of it until I'm leveled off or the autopilot is engaged. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Just now, gsxrpilot said: I'm there with you. I can't reach the post if the seat is all the way back. But I can reach it and hold on to it when the seat is in the proper position for me. So I thought I'd grab ahold of it during the take-off and keep hold of it until I'm leveled off or the autopilot is engaged. Yeah, I think that's a tough choice. We're trained to have our right hand on the throttle during take off. We make sure the throttle stays bttw if we failed to set the friction lock tight enough or we're ready to pull it back if we need to abort. Our left hand is on the yoke and our right foot is ready to turn the rudder into the p factor effect. And if we're blessed with J-Bar gear we're pretty quickly using the right hand to raise the gear. We really need that seat to stay put! I'm thinking I might carry my old Jepp plates bag, with 6 2" binders it only weights about 30#, and drop it behind my seat for take off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 10 hours ago, mike_elliott said: Thanks Anthony, it is all possible because of the generosity of the people who attend and/or donate at/to the Mooney Summit, We still have not received verification, as the coroner is waiting for the DNA tests to come back before releasing the name of the deceased.We can all speculate on who it was, but we wont act until we know. Speaking of speculating, Guys, do grab that center post and really make sure your seat is LOCKED prior to taking to the runway. The Cessna seat AD that came to be was because of the death of Pauline Genung way back in the 80's or 90's when she, a 4-9" flight instructor, had the seat slip on takeoff at 50' AGL at KEYE. She was the first wife of my ex father in law. The seat rail profile of the Mooney and Cessna are similar if not identical, so the same mode of failure can happen to Mooney’s as well. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 On 3/29/2018 at 11:59 AM, thinwing said: Would taking off with full fuel and full flaps with trim set for landing cause an extreme pitchup? Not likely. That should be no different than a go-around: bump out some flaps, retrim, put the wheels away, take the rest of the flaps and trim again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 One note... if you have a lot of rail wear showing... you might be missing a wheel on(or off) the chair. If the plastic wheels are still all there, a prior owner may have replaced them... My C shed some chair wheels, then beat up the rails. It wasn’t obvious to the new owner that the axles for the wheels, weren’t the wheels... Goofy note, but i’m Probably not alone... I have been known to put things on the floor back there. That came after the 90s Cessna seat failure... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 Let go of the yoke and unfasten the belt or die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 hour ago, carusoam said: I have been known to put things on the floor back there. That came after the 90s Cessna seat failure... Best regards, -a- I always make sure it locks in but I may start putting something behind my seat. Either that or I start having my son sit behind me instead of my wife and let his legs stop me. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Skates97 said: I always make sure it locks in but I may start putting something behind my seat. Either that or I start having my son sit behind me instead of my wife and let his legs stop me. Exactly what I meant - a small block of wood could save a day - I’m thinking like a 2 by 4 or a 4 by 4 the width of a seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 You could always install these. http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/pspages/saftstop.php?clickkey=20921 Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 3 hours ago, M20Doc said: You could always install these. http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/pspages/saftstop.php?clickkey=20921 Clarence Perfect that looks look a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 I've had my seat slide back on me during rotation once. Scared the hell out of me but I was still able to push the nose down with the seat all the way back. I was solo and it was 43*F outside so it was a non-event. Not sure I would've liked to try that when loaded in a Florida summer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said: I've had my seat slide back on me during rotation once. Scared the hell out of me but I was still able to push the nose down with the seat all the way back. I was solo and it was 43*F outside so it was a non-event. Not sure I would've liked to try that when loaded in a Florida summer I’ve never had it happen in the Mooney, but have had it happen in Piper and Cessna in flight and once to a flight instructor just prior to rotation. What do you do different today? Was there a mechanical issue with the latch? In Cessna, it used to be that the holes were worn and the pins would pop out and slide back...although dirt, cracks and bad seat rigging would contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 6 hours ago, M20Doc said: You could always install these. http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/pspages/saftstop.php?clickkey=20921 Clarence Does anyone here have any experience with these? I need my seat all the way back so that I'm not doing Cirque du Soliel type gyrations to get into the LH seat. I can reach the yoke and could push forward with the seat in the furthest back position but I can't reach the rudder pedals enough to do anything meaningful with them. I am thinking of doing what @aviatoreb mentioned above and get a nice piece of hardwood the right width and router/sand it. I can keep in between the seats on the ground and slide it behind my seat after getting in. Having it between the seats will ensure that I don't forget to put it behind the seat as part of my pre-takeoff checklist (and descent) is to check the area between the seats to make sure it is clear for the Johnson Bar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 Something we might all check is the female receiver holes in the floor where the seat pins engage. My old E model didn’t latch as good as it should so when I took the seats out I noticed the holes had partially filled with debris and dirt and oil from someone lubricating through the years. I had to dig out the build up with a small pick and blow them clean. Things worked way better after that exercise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 So that’s it. We will not wait for the NTSB report? All of you have gravitated to a seat lock issue. Why don’t you all just call the NTSB and tell them to stop further review. I am sure it was not contaminated fuel or a failed control push/pull tube. Heart attac bird through window etc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 33 minutes ago, Jim Peace said: So that’s it. We will not wait for the NTSB report? All of you have gravitated to a seat lock issue. Why don’t you all just call the NTSB and tell them to stop further review. I am sure it was not contaminated fuel or a failed control push/pull tube. Heart attac bird through window etc That is silly Jim. Clearly this may not be what happened in this case but a slipping seat is a dangerous and possible failure mode that is easily prevented and this incident has raised the discussion. Why should we wait for an Ntsb report to have such a discussion and even address the problem whether or not it was the issue in this incident?!!! 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 8 hours ago, aviatoreb said: That is silly Jim. Clearly this may not be what happened in this case but a slipping seat is a dangerous and possible failure mode that is easily prevented and this incident has raised the discussion. Why should we wait for an Ntsb report to have such a discussion and even address the problem whether or not it was the issue in this incident?!!! Which is the entire value for discussing these things on the internet... Accident happens. Peanut galley discusses 10 different ways this accident could have reasonably happened. NTSB tells about one way that they think it happened based on facts. Some proportion of engaged audience thinks about one of these plausible alternative failure modes and maybe takes some preventative steps. Maybe one more NTSB report is avoided? Everybody learns something for next time. Rinse and repeat. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 Dozens of friends hanging out waiting for details regarding a Brother Mooney Pilot.... Expect some variations of a conversation to continue on. Use some caution, this thread is essentially a heavy subject... Thread drift has its hazards. Expect somebody to come through and not recognize the title... a fault of some browsers and hardware combinations... Best regards and prayers, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 In my opinion, if we were discussing this with the press, or the public at large, our discussions about possible causes would probably be inappropriate. However, among our limited family of concerned flyers, I believe the potential benefit of these discussions far outweighs any potential harm. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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