neilpilot Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, frcabot said: My POH doesn't reflect that. It lists a working gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator only for IFR. Besides, as I said, there is a secondary pump. But with all respect, arguing about what's on the MEL isn't all that helpful for the instant issue, which is whether anyone knows a good and reasonably priced A&P and can vouch for them based on personal experience. If you are so concerned about the MEL, you could always call the FSDO. Who said anything about a MEL? The Type Certificate is not the same as a MEL. I was only suggesting that your attempt to fly with the vacuum issue, while certainly doable, may represent an illegal operation that you might not want to advertise on MS. I know a very competent A&P with a $75/hr shop rate, but cannot recommend you to them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 I'm using the terms interchangeably (the type certificate in effect reflects what the minimum operating equipment is) and am not concerned about getting in trouble with an inop primary pump and a working secondary pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, neilpilot said: Who said anything about a MEL? The Type Certificate is not the same as a MEL. I was only suggesting that your attempt to fly with the vacuum issue, while certainly doable, may represent an illegal operation that you might not want to advertise on MS. I know a very competent A&P with a $75/hr shop rate, but cannot recommend you to them. Also just for giggles, I looked up the type certificate for the M20J. Next to vacuum pumps, it says in parenthesis (Required IFR, Optional VFR). It also lists two separate pumps, one primary and one secondary, with the word OR between the two (in other words, only one needs to be working for IFR, 0 for VFR). Thanks for your incorrect two cents though. As far as your imaginary A&P with the $75 rate, if s/he knows as little as you do and has the same know-it-all sarcastic attitude, I think I'm good to pass. Thanks! Did you want the number for the FSDO so you could tattle? Edited March 27, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 30 minutes ago, frcabot said: Also just for giggles, I looked up the type certificate for the M20J. Next to vacuum pumps, it says in parenthesis (Required IFR, Optional VFR). It also lists two separate pumps, one primary and one secondary, with the word OR between the two (in other words, only one needs to be working for IFR, 0 for VFR). OK, I don't see that note for the M20J. Maybe I don't have a current copy??. Mine is dated 12/9/2010. Just read latest type certificate revision, as of Dec 2017, and I still don't see the note you reference. KOAK FSDO is (510) 748-0122, but email is more efficient. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Anyone else wanna help furball find a mechanic? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 2 hours ago, frcabot said: I don't have a local mechanic and I can't see anything wrong with the wires myself. That's why I'm asking for a recommendation. I'm not even 100% sure it's the vacuum pump that needs replacing but I suspect it is. So I don't even want to buy something I may not even need. The only thing I'm asking for is the name and number of a good, inexpensive, honest and efficient mechanic. Surely there must be one somewhere in California? I'll open it up to Oregon and Arizona and Nevada too. Just give me a name and number. Thanks. If you're ok coming up to OR, I use Flitewing in Salem, OR (can't remember the phone #, but he has a Google listing). He charges $80/hour IIRC, and he's done some basic panel work for me. Also, one of the co-founders of Top Gun is now running a mobile shop out of Corvallis, OR called Phantom Aero, but I only just ran into him, so I can't recommend him yet. If you're interested, he gave me his card which I can dig up later. But yes, that's a long way to go with a broken vacuum pump. Hope you find someone closer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: If you're ok coming up to OR, I use Flitewing in Salem, OR (can't remember the phone #, but he has a Google listing). He charges $80/hour IIRC, and he's done some basic panel work for me. Also, one of the co-founders of Top Gun is now running a mobile shop out of Corvallis, OR called Phantom Aero, but I only just ran into him, so I can't recommend him yet. If you're interested, he gave me his card which I can dig up later. But yes, that's a long way to go with a broken vacuum pump. Hope you find someone closer. Thanks, I'll check them both out. I don't mind a visit to OR if I make a trip out of it. I'll take the info for your mobile shop too if you manage to find it! Edited March 27, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, neilpilot said: OK, I don't see that note for the M20J. Maybe I don't have a current copy??. Mine is dated 12/9/2010. Just read latest type certificate revision, as of Dec 2017, and I still don't see the note you reference. KOAK FSDO is (510) 748-0122, but email is more efficient. Pages 4, 7, 10, 14, 18, 22, 25, 28, etc. December 7 2010 revision. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.67m20e.com/Mooney%20TCDS%202A3%20Rev%2052%20dtd%209DEC10.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo3_ngv43aAhUN6mMKHWCSAn4QFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3bYHfqdxfpE4I57qO1PzFh You're welcome. Let me know what the FSDO says I needed a good laugh. Edited March 27, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Good idea!500 nm from Bay Area at 140 kts x10 gal /hr x400 / gal =143 usd each way plus hotel expense.Say 300 bucks to get 80/HR vs 120/HR at Petaluma.4 HR job at Petaluma = 480 usd....Oregon job 4 HR x80 plus 300 travel =620 usd.weather a little iffy up north but who needs a functioning vac pump when you got I5. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, thinwing said: Good idea!500 nm from Bay Area at 140 kts x10 gal /hr x400 / gal =143 usd each way plus hotel expense.Say 300 bucks to get 80/HR vs 120/HR at Petaluma.4 HR job at Petaluma = 480 usd....Oregon job 4 HR x80 plus 300 travel =620 usd.weather a little iffy up north but who needs a functioning vac pump when you got I5. You need!to learn...how ,to read!Because I have...a functioning pump...i also have a backup electric AHRS... Also, no idea what "x400" or "300 bucks" or "300 travel" mean or where you are pulling those numbers from. As far 4 hours maintenance work, lol and I'll believe it when I see the bill. I also need my PTT button or radio wires fixed. Finally, the cruising speed of a 201 is 160TAS, not 140. That's why it's called a 201. Edited March 27, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pritch Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 So if $120 an hr is to much to pay, how much are you willing to pay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Pritch said: So if $120 an hr is to much to pay, how much are you willing to pay? I think around $85 is reasonable for an A&P who doesn't need specialized certifications on routine issues. I'm willing to pay more for an annual just to get it signed off by an MSC, but there's no reason this issues needs an MSC. Not sure if this issue needs IA but I suspect it doesn't. Edited March 27, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pritch Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 I can't even find an automotive mechanic for that little. Have you tried an avionics shop to fix you PPT, they would be quicker and more knowledgeable. Both Lincoln and Santa Rosa have good shops. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Pritch said: I can't even find an automotive mechanic for that little. Have you tried an avionics shop to fix you PPT, they would be quicker and more knowledgeable. Both Lincoln and Santa Rosa have good shops. Not familiar with Lincoln, I'll give them both a call. I left messages for both the LVK and PAO avionics shops and never heard back so they must not be desperate for business. Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniacX Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 There is a really good shop that just opened at Columbia for avionics. Only one experience with them and they were fantastic. I also go to Troy (owner) at Carson Aviation in Carson City Nevada which is a full service shop. Excellent rates and very good service. I have never been disappointed with them or their prices. I am thinking they were right around that $85 hr but maybe they just gave me good rates because I am a return customer. Good Luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 1 hour ago, frcabot said: Pages 4, 7, 10, 14, 18, 22, 25, 28, etc. December 7 2010 revision. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.67m20e.com/Mooney%20TCDS%202A3%20Rev%2052%20dtd%209DEC10.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo3_ngv43aAhUN6mMKHWCSAn4QFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3bYHfqdxfpE4I57qO1PzFh All of the notes you site refer to other models. There no similar exemption to operation of your M20J without an operable primary, i.e. engine driven, vacuum pump. Only note 24 applies, and that requires permitted removal of your vacuum system if an approved all electric panel is installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, neilpilot said: All of the notes you site refer to other models. There no similar exemption to operation of your M20J without an operable primary, i.e. engine driven, vacuum pump. Only note 24 applies, and that requires permitted removal of your vacuum system if an approved all electric panel is installed. From my POH. https://imgur.com/a/yBgZO Vacuum pump only required for IFR flight and even then, only one is required. I have a working pump. I'm flying VFR. An Artificial Horizon is not required for VFR flight per the FARs (and again, it works fine with the secondary pump). I'm pretty confident and comfortable with my decision to fly VFR without a working primary pump. We can keep arguing about this but it seems like neither one is going to convince the other, so what's the point? Let's just agree to disagree and move on with our lives. Edited March 27, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, mooniacX said: There is a really good shop that just opened at Columbia for avionics. Only one experience with them and they were fantastic. I also go to Troy (owner) at Carson Aviation in Carson City Nevada which is a full service shop. Excellent rates and very good service. I have never been disappointed with them or their prices. I am thinking they were right around that $85 hr but maybe they just gave me good rates because I am a return customer. Good Luck! They are $95 per their quote and they are going to refer the stuck mic issue to Chaparral (sp?), which is $125/hr, but they said they can probably address all issues in one day and they will coordinate with the avionics shop, so Carson City sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, frcabot said: Pages 4, 7, 10, 14, 18, 22, 25, 28, etc. December 7 2010 revision. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.67m20e.com/Mooney%20TCDS%202A3%20Rev%2052%20dtd%209DEC10.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo3_ngv43aAhUN6mMKHWCSAn4QFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3bYHfqdxfpE4I57qO1PzFh You're welcome. Let me know what the FSDO says I needed a good laugh. I should point out that the TCDS for all the models up to the M20G say in the vacuum pump section "Required IFR, Optional VFR", but starting with the M20J it does NOT say this. From then on the section is just titled "Vacuum pumps, see Note 24". I'm not sure if that was intentional or not... If it was intentional, it would still be "legal" to fly VFR if it passes annual, but a sharp-eyed IA might not sign off on it as airworthy on annual. Edited March 28, 2018 by jaylw314 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: I should point out that the TCDS for all the models up to the M20G say in the vacuum pump section "Required IFR, Optional VFR", but starting with the M20J it does NOT say this. From then on the section is just titled "Vacuum pumps, see Note 24". I'm not sure if that was intentional or not... If it was intentional, it would still be "legal" to fly VFR if it passes annual, but a sharp-eyed IA might not sign off on it as airworthy on annual. Good point. The issue will definitely be fixed before the next annual though. Between the POH and the FARs, I don’t feel I need to go through the hassle of getting a special ferry permit. Edited March 28, 2018 by frcabot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 4 hours ago, frcabot said: Thanks, I'll check them both out. I don't mind a visit to OR if I make a trip out of it. I'll take the info for your mobile shop too if you manage to find it! The contact info for Flitewing is Mike Ward IA/A&P 503-559-6006. Website www.flitewing.net Phantom Aero Service is Rick Brisby IA/A&P 541-231-5193. Website www.phantomaeroservice.com I generally have Fridays off, so if you end up here on a Friday I might be able to help out with transportation and/or crash space. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Just now, jaylw314 said: The contact info for Flitewing is Mike Ward IA/A&P 503-559-6006. Website www.flitewing.net Phantom Aero Service is Rick Brisby IA/A&P 541-231-5193. Website www.phantomaeroservice.com I generally have Fridays off, so if you end up here on a Friday I might be able to help out with transportation and/or crash space. Good luck! Thanks Jay, that's awfully nice of you. You are a gentleman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 23 hours ago, frcabot said: The whole point is I want to try to get the $65/hr rate that everyone in the rest of the country brags about You might have to look outside the San Francisco area, try KY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frcabot Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, mike_elliott said: You might have to look outside the San Francisco area, try KY. Yeah I was kind of wondering how far I'd have to go. For something big like an annual it might be worse travelling a fair distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helitim Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 If a tiny 2BR/2BA home in the Bay Area didn't cost around a million dollars in many neighborhoods or, the rent for one was not 3-5K per month you might find a $65/hr A&P. If a mechanic in the Bay Area charged those types of rates, I would honestly question his competence or sanity. It is a simple matter of economics. If you are willing to leave California, finding what you seek is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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