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Mooney stuck in Carlisle PA


John Mininger

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While flying back home to (KUKT) from Bedford PA (KHMZ) last Sunday after visiting friends, we had to make a semi emergency landing in Carlisle PA (N94). Turns out we lost the #3 cylinder. The engine has about 2200 hours on it, so I’ve pretty much decided to overhaul it, and I’ve pretty much decided to replace it with a factory reman I0-360 A3B6. (Roller lifters and two mags.) I would have considered the IO-390 conversion, but my McCauley only has about 200 hours since overhaul. I don’t really feel like spending another $10,000-$11,000 on a Hartzell.

My priority though is to get the plane back home. Does anyone know the price and have any experience with the new Continental cylinders for angle valve Lycomings? Last I saw, Lycoming angle valve cylinder kits were still around $2200. Strangely enough, Lycoming cylinder kits for the IO-390 are now around $1750 from Air-Power.

Thanks

John

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Put an cheap overhauled or used serviceable cheap as possible cylinder on it. Get it home first then fly it out until you decide to remove the engine.  Don’t spend more than necessary for the ferry flight home. 

Edited by jetdriven
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Thanks Byron. That's kind of the way I'm leaning. But I have no idea what the cost of the new Continental cylinders is. If it's $950 for a serviceable cylinder kit vs.  $1500 for a new one; I don't know. The $950 serviceable wins hands down over a $2200 Lycoming!

By the way, would you recommend replacing the Slicks on the A3B6 with 1200 series Bendix mags ASAP? Or wait until the first overhaul on the Slicks?

John

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Do you know the reason for the cylinder failure?  Depending on the failure mode you may or may not be able to slap a new cylinder on and ferry it to home / Weber at LNS / wherever so you can slow down and make some decisions.  If you're looking for solid work but not too fancy, Winchester Aero engines seems to be the regional go-to easily within pickup truck distance of you. 

Most popular overhaul seems to be to do the A3B6D->A3B6 conversion without worrying about the IO-390.  In fact, if this is anything but your forever plane, the standard engine Js seems to be more reassuring to potential buyers than anything with a 390 conversion.  Plus you'd get to keep your prop.  Plus you'd get to put on a prop of your liking when the time comes.  Plus those 390 cylinders are stupidly expensive. 

 

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Your cheapest option may be to just have your old cylinder overhauled or find a shop that will do an overhaul exchange. 

As for magnetos- the Slicks are good for 400-500 hours and at least a few years. My suggestion is to wait until 400 hours when you’d be looking at the 500 hour inspection coming up and swap to the Bendix then. You’ll get a reasonable trade in credit for the Slicks so the price will be close to a wash for the 500 hour inspection. 

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48 minutes ago, bradp said:

Plus those 390 cylinders are stupidly expensive. 

Thanks bradp. I'm going with the IO-360 A3B6 mainly because I don't want to replace the prob. The price of the 390 cylinders are a lot less than they used to be. In my deliberations over which way to go, I got a quote of $1728 for 390 cylinders from Air-Power.

I have a hypothesis, and it’s only a hypothesis, that Lycoming is “incentivizing” us to convert to the IO-390 because they’re concerned about the detonation margins of the IO-360 with the new UL fuel.

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1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

As for magnetos- the Slicks are good for 400-500 hours and at least a few years.

I keep reading this sort of thing.  But for what it's worth, the Slick mags in our IO-360-A1A have been running fine for 17 years and 1500 hours.  They get timed at every annual and opened up for inspection every 500 hours.  At one of the 500-hour inspections, our A&P replaced some inexpensive internal parts, that's it.  I'm not sure why they have a reputation as "throwaway" mags.  Is the conventional wisdom that we're just lucky?

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John is correct. The 4xxx series on the Io-360s aren’t throwaway.  The problem has been with quality of parts from champion / slick.  Anecdotally it took three tries for me to have a collection of overhauled parts from slick that all actually worked. Quality, champion/slick, Kelly etc are all in my do not send box.  

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54 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I keep reading this sort of thing.  But for what it's worth, the Slick mags in our IO-360-A1A have been running fine for 17 years and 1500 hours.  They get timed at every annual and opened up for inspection every 500 hours.  At one of the 500-hour inspections, our A&P replaced some inexpensive internal parts, that's it.  I'm not sure why they have a reputation as "throwaway" mags.  Is the conventional wisdom that we're just lucky?

The only reason that I suggested switching them out at 400-500 hours to @John Mininger is that there isn't any reason to do so right away, but if he was going to switch to the Bendix he should do so just before the 500 hour inspection came due, and save some money.

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This is a bit of a two part question... isn’t it?

A ) What ‘killed’ the cylinder?  It just went cold in flight? Who said replacing a cylinder is the solution? Why?

B ) What to replace the engine with after it gets home?

 

Part A: (some ideas, not all)

1) Fuel...  plugged fuel injector...

2) ignition... two plugs have been disabled...

3) air... intake leak large enough to imbalance fuel air ratio

4) mechanical... compression has been lost... valve or rings...

 

Just wondering what needs to fixed before taking the plane home.

PP thoughts only, looks like I missed something...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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The new A3b6 comes from Lycoming with new slicks and new alternator . I installed mine on the ramp in the hot summer away from home field but driving distance after a total engine failure. 

If you don’t already have it you’ll need an stc for the a3b6  I already had one but not sure where you’d get the stc today  

-Robert

Edited by RobertGary1
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40 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

The -A3B6 is listed in the TC for the J, so it can installed with a logbook entry. You do need the different governor bracket and a few other bits to make it work, though.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

Ah, I missed that he had a J. From the wording I thought he was considering upgrading from an A1A to an A3B6.

-Robert

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1 hour ago, Little Dipper said:

I'm out our KCKZ and am willing to run you out to Carlisle when the time comes to bring her back.

Thank you very much. I may take you up on that. There are about 4 of us based at Quakertown who operate sort of an impromptu rescue service; a kind of mutual aid society so to speak for those of us who get stranded off the field. But again, thank you very much.

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2 hours ago, carusoam said:

This is a bit of a two part question... isn’t it?

A ) What ‘killed’ the cylinder?  It just went cold in flight? Who said replacing a cylinder is the solution? Why?

B ) What to replace the engine with after it gets home?

 

Part A: (some ideas, not all)

1) Fuel...  plugged fuel injector...

2) ignition... two plugs have been disabled...

3) air... intake leak large enough to imbalance fuel air ratio

4) mechanical... compression has been lost... valve or rings...

 

Just wondering what needs to fixed before taking the plane home.

PP thoughts only, looks like I missed something...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

We were happily flying along at 7500' eastbound, when suddenly, the engine started running rough. It sounded like it was running on 3 cylinders. Which turned out it was the case. Number 3 cylinder was producing barely any heat. I was able to hold altitude with the power that I had left, but since I didn’t know exactly what was wrong, and we were within easy glide distance of Carlisle, I decided that discretion was the better part of valor and landed at N94. When we got on the ground and tied down, I pulled the prop through and there was only compression in 3 cylinders. This was Sunday a week ago and there was no A&P around. Last week I had an A&P who had a plane on the field bore scope the #3 cylinder. He said a valve had failed and that the inside of the cylinder, plugs, and top of the piston were “beat up”, but it didn’t look like any piece of the valve went through the top of the piston. There didn’t seem to be any visible damage to the outside of the cylinder and the push rod tubes were not bent. The A&P said that a cylinder kit should get me home, but to make sure the exhaust system was checked for any debris from the broken valve. So, my thoughts are to get a serviceable cylinder for under $1000, have it installed out there, get the plane home, and likely replace the engine with reman IO360A3B6.

   

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3 minutes ago, John Mininger said:

 

We were happily flying along at 7500' eastbound, when suddenly, the engine started running rough. It sounded like it was running on 3 cylinders. Which turned out it was the case. Number 3 cylinder was producing barely any heat. I was able to hold altitude with the power that I had left, but since I didn’t know exactly what was wrong, and we were within easy glide distance of Carlisle, I decided that discretion was the better part of valor and landed at N94. When we got on the ground and tied down, I pulled the prop through and there was only compression in 3 cylinders. This was Sunday a week ago and there was no A&P around. Last week I had an A&P who had a plane on the field bore scope the #3 cylinder. He said a valve had failed and that the inside of the cylinder, plugs, and top of the piston were “beat up”, but it didn’t look like any piece of the valve went through the top of the piston. There didn’t seem to be any visible damage to the outside of the cylinder and the push rod tubes were not bent. The A&P said that a cylinder kit should get me home, but to make sure the exhaust system was checked for any debris from the broken valve. So, my thoughts are to get a serviceable cylinder for under $1000, have it installed out there, get the plane home, and likely replace the engine with reman IO360A3B6.

   

John, my sympathy!

I have the top of a piston and 2 pieces of an exhaust valve on the mantel in my office. We had the same valve failure scenario many years ago. But in my case the engine ran so rough I pulled the power and glided to the nearest airport and left the plane with the A&P there. (We were headed to MA for a week so we drove from NJ to MA and when we got back to NJ the cylinder had been replace and we flew back to NC.) I decided to replace the engine which was fairly high time shortly after that. At the time $10,000 with Norm Bender got a factory new IO360-A1A swap including the R&R. 

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Any reason not to just replace the cylinder and keep flying it?  if there is no evidence of bottom end damage, and you're just planning on eventually getting a remanufactured motor anyway when the time comes, you gain little by getting the reman now instead of later.  It's not like you will save downtime by doing it now, and you'll already have paid for the cylinder anyway.

 

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Well if you have already decided on a new engine why spend money and possibly a risky ferry flight. Find a shop locally and have them install the new engine at the current site. Lots of shops will do that and you avoid additional downtime as well as expense. Just a thought.

Edited by Cris
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10 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Any reason not to just replace the cylinder and keep flying it?  if there is no evidence of bottom end damage, and you're just planning on eventually getting a remanufactured motor anyway when the time comes, you gain little by getting the reman now instead of later.  It's not like you will save downtime by doing it now, and you'll already have paid for the cylinder anyway.

 

No, there really isn’t any reason not to just keep flying it. The last oil change I did, didn’t show any abnormal amounts of medal in the filter. The oil analysis from Blackstone did show elevated levels of copper. Valve guide? I am anxious to take a good look at the failed valve. The cylinders were borescoped about 100 hours ago and no green areas on the faces.

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