Jeffington Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Hi everyone, I've been a lurker on this forum for a few years as I've researched and eventually purchased my M20J. What a great group of Mooniacs and such a plethora of information! I sort of hate myself for my first actual post to be a "For Sale" ad, but maybe this will encourage me to participate more in the rest of the forum. Well, anyway, here goes... I bought a hangar for my M20J and a 1962 Mooney M20C airplane came with it. The owner lost his medical and didn't fly for awhile, and hence the airplane was neglected for several years. The information I have is based on what he told me, what the most recent mechanic has told me, and what I as a non-mechanic can see by looking at it. I'm not an expert by any means, but am trying to provide the best and most thorough information I can. From what I gather by talking to the mechanic for this airplane and from my own M20J mechanic, and whatever tidbits I could get from the previous owner, the airplane should be able to fly after the following: Inspect and clean spark plugs (if necessary) and put them in Attach spark plug wire leads Hook up new cluster gauge (looks like oil line isn't attached yet) Assemble cowling Assemble right wing tank Finish assembling interior (copilot seat and a side panel it looks like) Fuel up The above list is what the mechanic is expecting for it to pass annual. However, I also scanned all of the logs and took photos, and sent them up to my M20J mechanic, and he reviewed them all and made some assessments. Note that he has never seen this airplane in person - his analysis is from the logs only: Two ADs are the most important Oil pump gears AD Eddy current AD No record of gear pucks ever being replaced No STC for panel upgrade Full report at: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N0jgzsv-d88I6qR0-EyM5CQBzx2ueMkv So I don't know what that means as far as getting a ferry permit or making it airworthy or whatever. That's above my pay grade, as they say. Here are some additional notes that might help answer some additional questions you could have: Currently located at KBTF (a bit North of Salt Lake City) Currently out of annual, as I mentioned Mods seem to include: Cowl enclosure Wing roots J window Powerflow exhaust Owner claimed an air/oil separator, but I haven't confirmed "6-pack" style panel Both brakes work well (pressed and held for 1 minute while two others pushed on the wings) Battery is good - master comes on and landing light is bright A local mechanic says it looks like a newer one Hooked it up to a tester which reports "Good" Only flown 130 hours from 2002 - 2011 Last compression results from the logbooks: 07/26/2011 (at 1244 tach) - 72, 75, 76, 66; 09/06/2002 (at 1104 tach) - 79, 79, 79, 76 Sitting outside now, but hangared most of its previous life (according to owner) Spark plugs and wires are disconnected, but present Extra set of 8 used plugs; unknown condition Engine has compression when rotated by hand Oil looks full and clean Right fuel tank covers removed I was told the tank was being inspected for leaks for the annual I was also told the tanks were just re-sealed by a local mechanic Under wings don't appear to have blue streaks or whatever Unknown condition of rubber hoses/tubes/seals Tires appear to hold air just fine - they've been pumped up for 4 months now Appears to have new cluster gauge partially installed, but needs hookups completed Copilot seat currently removed A few trim panels also removed Box of all kinds of screws, parts, logs, etc. left by previous owner Unknown if all screws and parts are in here Engine cowling is not fully attached - just held with a few screws Four rubber doughnuts on the mains, three on the front wheel As I mentioned, I've scanned all of the logs and records. I've also ordered the title and registration reports and all that. Here you go: All Logbookshttps://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yHsA9Drg7euFgzZWuumvE0l_GIqh79Aw?usp=sharing Reportshttps://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mg7VG8QWsctqh94qwuVZUQJ8v4uoZ2Zl?usp=sharing Now for the fun part. Here are a bunch of photos I've taken. Please note that many of the photos were taken when it was still in the hangar as I was purchasing the hangar. It's not in a hangar now. Also note that all of these pictures are taken by me and were taken recently (since December 2017). Photoshttps://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1g5NKyodcPjBf9VuG1X-rsSwL54RDcxMj?usp=sharing Price? Well, I paid $30k for it, but it was primarily in order to get a precious hangar. I know it's not worth anywhere near that, despite what the owner claimed. I'd like to of course minimize my losses, but having the airplane gone is more valuable than holding on to it to squeeze a few more bucks out of it. I have no place to store it and the airport has an 18 month waiting list for a tie down. I'm using up good graces of my hangar neighbors to have it tied down right now, but it needs to be gone. In other words, make an offer. Getting it off of my hands quickly is worth money to me. It's currently registered in my name and of course I'd fill out the appropriate FAA forms to get it transferred to you. There's no lien on it. Feel free to ask any questions you'd like. I can go take pictures of anything or whatever as well. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 My advice is to pay a mechanic to make it airworthy. I would think 3-5 k would get it in the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 What a sweet little bird. Good buy for the next owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6758N Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 @Alan Fox needs to buy this and let me fly it back to NJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamont337 Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Wasn’t someone on here looking for a 48 gallon wing not too long ago? I don’t remember how that ended up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wburger1 Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 That was me looking for the 48 gallon wing. Finally gave up and sold the whole plane. Getting ready to close on a M20F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 15 hours ago, MIm20c said: My advice is to pay a mechanic to make it airworthy. I would think 3-5 k would get it in the air. You have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about , 3 to 5 K wouldn't even fix that tank , where they put new sealant in it without stripping it........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 43 minutes ago, Alan Fox said: You have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about , 3 to 5 K wouldn't even fix that tank , where they put new sealant in it without stripping it........ Oh, I disagree, Alan; I think after 3,000 to 5,000 hours of labor it would be a fine plane. 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said: Oh, I disagree, Alan; I think after 3,000 to 5,000 hours of labor it would be a fine plane. You are the man !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 5 hours ago, Alan Fox said: You have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about , 3 to 5 K wouldn't even fix that tank , where they put new sealant in it without stripping it........ No reason to get pissy about it. I did not look at the photos because I have no intention of offering him a few dollars and taking a saw to it. The ad said a mechanic resealed both tanks and was chasing a remaining leak on the right side. It’s not my place to knock his ad so I was implying at an expensive airport with no hangars available it would be hard to attract a buyer for a local project. 5k for one tank is professionally done at a well known shop. I hope this plane will continue to fly many more hours. However, it will take a special buyer like @Raptor05121 and a willing IA to make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 In New Jersey that's not being pissy, it's being nice. ;-) 3 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffington Posted March 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 Thanks for all the comments. I have a soft spot for vintage technologies and a bit of nostalgia for the flying days of yester year, so I would love to see a machine like this back in the air where it was designed to be. However, I recognize that without the right combination of dedicated people, it’s likely that the safest place for this bird is to be out of commission. In any case, I’m looking for options. Selling, recycling, parting out, restoring, donating, finding a training school for mechanics, or whatever. It’s ironic that my first foray into airplane ownership has accidentally netted me TWO airplanes. So now I’m learning about the challenges and joys of ownership by diving in head first! Looking forward to more feedback and comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: In New Jersey that's not being pissy, it's being nice. ;-) Now that’s funny! ...and true. Edited March 25, 2018 by nels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 I would advertise it for a price you are willing to accept on some of the usual sites and see what happens. Maybe you find someone local looking to get started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 2 hours ago, MIm20c said: No reason to get pissy about it. I did not look at the photos because I have no intention of offering him a few dollars and taking a saw to it. The ad said a mechanic resealed both tanks and was chasing a remaining leak on the right side. It’s not my place to knock his ad so I was implying at an expensive airport with no hangars available it would be hard to attract a buyer for a local project. 5k for one tank is professionally done at a well known shop. I hope this plane will continue to fly many more hours. However, it will take a special buyer like @Raptor05121 and a willing IA to make it happen. What happens when you trivialize the severity , is some poor fool buys it , pours 15 K into it , and it still will never fly..... I am not getting pissy , there are plenty of planes to take saws to... but to quote repair costs , and not even look at the pics , is just plain ignorant...... Yes this plane needs the saw...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, Alan Fox said: What happens when you trivialize the severity , is some poor fool buys it , pours 15 K into it , and it still will never fly..... I am not getting pissy , there are plenty of planes to take saws to... but to quote repair costs , and not even look at the pics , is just plain ignorant...... Yes this plane needs the saw...... I know your eyes are trained better than mine. But please tell me how a trained IA (locally around $50 per hour) could spend 300 hrs fixing this plane and not have it flying? That amount of time could almost build a damn RV12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 hours ago, Alan Fox said: What happens when you trivialize the severity , is some poor fool buys it , pours 15 K into it , and it still will never fly..... I am not getting pissy , there are plenty of planes to take saws to... but to quote repair costs , and not even look at the pics , is just plain ignorant...... Yes this plane needs the saw...... I'm sure you said the same about my plane too. Yeah it takes some money but if you've got determination, it'll work. I've probably got $15k in my plane in the past 2 years in parts and labor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Personally, I regard an out of annual aircraft as nothing more than scrap, since its unairworthy, and would pay any more for it than that. Says me hire someone to annual the thing and unload it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 13 minutes ago, steingar said: Personally, I regard an out of annual aircraft as nothing more than scrap, since its unairworthy, and would pay any more for it than that. Says me hire someone to annual the thing and unload it. It would depend to me how far out of annual it is. I bought my 252 a couple of years ago out of annual. But it was only a month out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 15 hours ago, Raptor05121 said: I'm sure you said the same about my plane too. Yeah it takes some money but if you've got determination, it'll work. I've probably got $15k in my plane in the past 2 years in parts and labor No , I would have bought yours , if it wasn't a thousand miles away , In fact , I turned it down , before you took it..... I also talked the guy you bought it from , into taking your offer , (which was about 1800 less than than he wanted to sell for ) for the reasoning , that it wasn't worth a few thousand dollars , to possibly sit on the plane for a few more years..... I think he was an EAA guy or something ..... Been a while , but for some reason I remember EAA or Young eagles associated with that plane...... Also the BIG ONE your plane was totally together and in tact.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, Alan Fox said: Also the BIG ONE your plane was totally together and in tact.... That’s the part that bothers me. I don’t like half finished projects lying around. No disrespect to the OP because he was very upfront with information but why not put some of it back together (besides the tanks)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffington Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Absolutely no disrespect taken! This is exactly the type of feedback I'm hoping to get. As I mentioned, this is all new to me and I don't know what the best options and path forward is, or if there's liability (or guilt) for putting the airplane back together when it's been sitting and/or has airworthiness directives pending and all that. The oil pump gears AD has been out there for quite awhile, but the airplane was always successfully annualed either because the owner/mechanic didn't know or didn't care about it. My understanding is that now that I'm aware of the information, I'm liable for informing the next buyer (or for paying a mechanic to remove, disassemble, fix, and reassemble the motor). I would actually like to put some of the airplane back together, truth be told. I like mechanical stuff. But I don't have the time or a place to do it and I'm getting yelled at for having the airplane sit where it is. I have a potential lead on a short-term tie down, plus the weather might be finally clearing up, which might give me a better chance of putting it together and starting it up. If I could find the time. My philosophy in aviation is that I should never be offended at critiques, criticisms, or suggestions. That goes for my flying techniques as well as what to do with an airplane. I really appreciate the suggestions and feedback. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Your new hangar looks awesome....insulated,good lighting...loft area would make nice man cave with big screen ,reefer,comfy sofa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffington Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Thanks! It was a complete disaster when I purchased it. My old man brought his truck down and we filled it up with just the metal scraps laying around to recycle. It was over 1,100 pounds! Now that it's all cleaned out, adding bathrooms and all that are the next steps. Even with it cleaned out, however, I can't find a way to get both Mooneys to fit in there so that I could do some work on the one that I need to get rid of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Looking at it from afar is nothing but guesswork. A Mooney savy mechanic needs to look at it where it is and then decide what needs to be done to make it at least ferryable or better get it anualled and therefore sellable. I like the way it looks from the outside, the windscreen mod is something I would want to do to mine if I had the possibility. It could be a good "white sheet" airplane for someone who wants a cheap airframe to make his own. But for that purpose it should at least be in a condition where it can be ferried to a new home. So my advice from far away would be to get a competent mechanic to give you an offer for both variants: Ferryable condition and fully anualled. If you can do it, get it flyable and put it up for sale. Fully annualled it might even fetch your money back with all these mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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