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Avionics upgrades for Canadians in the U.S.


khedrei

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Hi all.  A bit of a preface here.  I'm a new owner, just getting my first annual on my own (the first was done with the seller and we split some costs).  Minor back story here.  There have been a lot of things discovered in this annual that seem like they should have been discovered in the previous, and apparently there were many mistakes made by this supposedly reputable shop.  I know this isn't a poor man's hobby but WOW!

 

My question is relating to avionics upgrades, and costs.  I know I need a new Mode S transponder.  I has been in the back of my head and I have been starting some more serious research.  I have received a rough verbal quote from a local shop for an install on a new GTX-345 so that I can benefit from the compatibility to my 430W.  He said I was looking at 8-10k USD.  Keep in mind I am in Canada so ad 25% to that, then add 13% more for sales tax.

 

After doing a bit of reading on just a couple US websites they advertise "From $4800".  I would assume that is just to purchase the unit, although how much can the unit cost vary.  I would assume it would only be the install cost that varies save for maybe a few different wiring options or kits that certain planes might need.  Regardless, he told me that the install is in the 20 hour range.  At about $100 CAD per hour, I can't quite figure out where the rest of the cost is coming from to total 8-10k USD.  Even if the unit is 6k USD, that would mean the install is $4000 USD which is more than 40 hours if the rate is $100 CAD per hour.  It simply isn't adding up.

 

Here is my next question.  How long can it possibly take to install a damn transponder.  I'm new to the airplane world and the airplane ownership world and I am still trying to understand and feel out how aircraft maintenance and avionics shops work.  I know it's an expensive game.  Do most work on flat rate?  I'm a pretty savvy guy and have been around auto shops and many types of repairs.  I can remodel a small bathroom in 40 hours, or re-re an engine and transmission on a car in less time than that.  I would think that a transponder install would be a day's work.  Again, I am not making any claims, I am simply asking for some advice from some experienced guys.  I am mainly looking to not get ripped off.  I have NEVER been opposed to paying a fair price.  I am looking to figure out what is fair.

 

When I do decide to replace the transponder I was thinking to also replace the audio panel.  I would have hoped it would save some time with them already having everything apart, but based on the telephone conversation it seems that the savings may not be as much as I had anticipated.  I understand that Mooney's are regarded as difficult to work on when it comes to panel stuff.

 

I would appreciate any input from anyone, especially Canadians that have made a trip to the US to get installs done and if it went smoothly.  Could you also let me know if there is anything special I need to get done in regards to logs to keep everything legal for TC.  Any recommendations on shops to look into would also be great.

 

These guys seem to be a Garmin heavy store.  He was really pushing the Garmin, I guess maybe because I have the 430W and for compatibility?  It does sort of make sense to stick with the same brand throughout my panel, also considering a possibly upgrade to a G5 set up when my AI and DG crap out.  I have no problem with people supporting a brand they believe in, but from what I know, Garmin is on the more expensive side of the options out there.  Is there a better bang for your buck?

 

Thanks in advance

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As a fellow Canadian, I feel your pain. I am on the fence on the ADSB thing as NAVCanada is publishing results of their report later this year. What I am concerned with is that Canada is doing the satellite based system that MAY require a diversity antenna ( one on the top and on the bottom ) arrangement. Normally the transponder antenna is only on the belly as it is talking to ground based stations. I would hate to spend $10k+ and find out I don't have the correct box.

 

For what it's worth, I am either installing the Garmin 3xx series or a Lynx depending on how spendy I feel. Lynx install is even more due to more remote stuff to install.

The install is like priced for your plane to include a new blade antenna, RG-400 coax and a new altitude encode of some kind. Not big dollar items, but they all add up and require taking the plane apart more.  I am planning on working with my AME on the install. I'll do all the grunt work for him, he can do the smart stuff. I would happily do it all if I was allowed.

 

iain

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I installed a GTX345 and Flightstream 210 (for flightplan transfer) last summer. Total bill $7746, and that is in pricey California. $4495 for the transponder, $95 for installation supplies, and 13 hours labor to install both units. The rest was tax and the flighstream.

Larry

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6 hours ago, khedrei said:

Hi all.  A bit of a preface here.  I'm a new owner, just getting my first annual on my own (the first was done with the seller and we split some costs).  Minor back story here.  There have been a lot of things discovered in this annual that seem like they should have been discovered in the previous, and apparently there were many mistakes made by this supposedly reputable shop.  I know this isn't a poor man's hobby but WOW!

 

My question is relating to avionics upgrades, and costs.  I know I need a new Mode S transponder.  I has been in the back of my head and I have been starting some more serious research.  I have received a rough verbal quote from a local shop for an install on a new GTX-345 so that I can benefit from the compatibility to my 430W.  He said I was looking at 8-10k USD.  Keep in mind I am in Canada so ad 25% to that, then add 13% more for sales tax.

 

After doing a bit of reading on just a couple US websites they advertise "From $4800".  I would assume that is just to purchase the unit, although how much can the unit cost vary.  I would assume it would only be the install cost that varies save for maybe a few different wiring options or kits that certain planes might need.  Regardless, he told me that the install is in the 20 hour range.  At about $100 CAD per hour, I can't quite figure out where the rest of the cost is coming from to total 8-10k USD.  Even if the unit is 6k USD, that would mean the install is $4000 USD which is more than 40 hours if the rate is $100 CAD per hour.  It simply isn't adding up.

 

Here is my next question.  How long can it possibly take to install a damn transponder.  I'm new to the airplane world and the airplane ownership world and I am still trying to understand and feel out how aircraft maintenance and avionics shops work.  I know it's an expensive game.  Do most work on flat rate?  I'm a pretty savvy guy and have been around auto shops and many types of repairs.  I can remodel a small bathroom in 40 hours, or re-re an engine and transmission on a car in less time than that.  I would think that a transponder install would be a day's work.  Again, I am not making any claims, I am simply asking for some advice from some experienced guys.  I am mainly looking to not get ripped off.  I have NEVER been opposed to paying a fair price.  I am looking to figure out what is fair.

 

When I do decide to replace the transponder I was thinking to also replace the audio panel.  I would have hoped it would save some time with them already having everything apart, but based on the telephone conversation it seems that the savings may not be as much as I had anticipated.  I understand that Mooney's are regarded as difficult to work on when it comes to panel stuff.

 

I would appreciate any input from anyone, especially Canadians that have made a trip to the US to get installs done and if it went smoothly.  Could you also let me know if there is anything special I need to get done in regards to logs to keep everything legal for TC.  Any recommendations on shops to look into would also be great.

 

These guys seem to be a Garmin heavy store.  He was really pushing the Garmin, I guess maybe because I have the 430W and for compatibility?  It does sort of make sense to stick with the same brand throughout my panel, also considering a possibly upgrade to a G5 set up when my AI and DG crap out.  I have no problem with people supporting a brand they believe in, but from what I know, Garmin is on the more expensive side of the options out there.  Is there a better bang for your buck?

 

Thanks in advance

Prices for installed GTX-345 units (non-internal GPS units) go for between $6,500 and $7,500 USD in my part of the states. As for the installation time, I think there is some padding because old avionics usually come with some level of issues associated with them. Either the rack needs work or the old wiring isn't good enough or something comes up. I would get quotes from numerous shops. Provide a detailed list of what you have installed in the plane and exactly what you want. Throw out the high and low. When I did my first avionics upgrade there was an $8k difference between the low and high shops! The ones in the middle were all within $2k of each other.

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On 22/03/2018 at 2:30 PM, thinwing said:

K..what transponder do you currently have installed?It wouldn't be a BK Kt-76 series by any chance...if so there are slide in options

If you want ADS-B, you will need to have to have a connection between your new «slide-in» transponder and your GPS for the WAAS position information.

I had my ADS-B setup installed in my M20E in Québec city. They took out the KT76A, AR850 encoder(I requested that change) and tray and installed an AXP340, Transcal120 and a new tray. Installation was 9.5 hours @ $92/hr. If you add altimeter, encoder and transponder certification( 3.5 hours), the dreaded paperwork (2 hours) and taxes, it totals under $1700/CA. 

Mode S transponder will cost anywhere from $3300/CA (KT74, AXP340,TT31) to $6500/CA (Garmin345 in/out). Add taxes and you're between $5000/CA to under $8500/CA for the more expensive solution installed.

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If you are thinking about a glass panel and adsb, you might want to wait just a little longer to see how the Dynon hdx will work for you.  It will also have an engine monitor on board, get it all done at once.  Getting anything done in Canada is always 30% more in GA, we just don’t have the market up here, it least that’s been my experience. I had a new avidyne stack installed a couple of yours ago, so I couldn’t give you a breakdown.

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Thank you for the friendly replies.

 

Yes, I do have a KT76 series transponder.  Clarence was kind enough to recommend a new BK drop in replacement.  But yes, I will need a link to the GPS.  All these things I'm learning.

 

FBCK, thanks for the tip.  Maybe I will hold off for a bit and see what Dynon has in store for Mooney's.  I'm not sure a glass panel is a priority, but maybe if I find the right partner in the future we can do some more with the plane.

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If you are thinking about a glass panel and adsb, you might want to wait just a little longer to see how the Dynon hdx will work for you.

A little longer?
You are looking at 2020+, they indicated brand B won’t be for up to another 18 months after completing 172 certification. Brand M always seems to be after C,B,and P.
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