poweroff 180

[Yetti]

I put the flaps out a bit early.  Probably could have made it, but gave it just a tad throttle for safety sakes.   Pretty much normal landing.  Just pulled the throttle randomly on a whim after threshold.  and it was a pretty evening to fly.

 

[Hank]

Nice landing! I'd have given it a kiss of throttle, too.

But like my wife always says about my landings, "You're off to the left." 

[milotron]

Nice. Working on this for my CPL.  When did you drop the gear?

 

Also, what did you film this with? 

 

iain

[Bryan]

I carry a little extra altitude with my CPL (training) PO 180s only because once I have the runway made I can loose altitude with full flaps and speed brakes to hit my spot.  The last maneuver I have to master is eights-on-pylons then I can take my practical.

[kortopates]

Nice. Working on this for my CPL.  When did you drop the gear?
 
Also, what did you film this with? 
 
iain

The gear is down before the maneuver begins. No need to risk a gear up practicing these.

Even in an emergency engine out situation you'll glide to the airport gear up at best glide. At the airport, gear comes down while doing as many 360's above your high point as required. This point is abeam the intended landing point (e.g. instrument landing zone). Then you'll make the final 180 to a landing - all with the gear down. But holding off flaps till the runway is assured.

The only time the gear isn't down in the power off landing is the true emergency where you're not yet if you'll make it too the runway and only then it could be last second or never.

Anyway, worth practicing for much more than the CPL. Could save your life and pax some day.



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[Yetti]

8 hours ago, milotron said:

Nice. Working on this for my CPL.  When did you drop the gear?

 

Also, what did you film this with? 

 

iain

This is pretty much a standard landing for me.  at the threshold pull up a bit get under gear speed, drop the gear.  Then add flaps as needed usually half way through the u turn.  with power off you have to start the uturn faster.  with power you have more time to doddle before starting the uturn. Usually land with half flaps.   Full flaps if too high. the gear and the flaps are energy management tools.   First gen sony action cam.  has a gps.   the edit software puts the stuff on the video.

[Yetti]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

But like my wife always says about my landings, "You're off to the left." 

Aw crap I did not notice that.  If my Flight Review ex Navy person saw that I would be in a heap of trouble.

[Gone]

Part of the MAPA PPP.  I did two of them over Concorde. Yours looks nice, but I think I would have tried to turn earlier to keep the altitude.  Easy for my E model to dump on short final if I have to.  

[Yetti]

I guess this was technically not power off practice,  It was more like gear down, set up for normal landing, hey I wonder if I pulled the power here what would happen.    usually on the Power off landing I will be closer to the touch down marks. Not sure why but my landings are worse on 34 or 36 which makes no sense since all the angles and trajectory is the same.  I blame the rotation of the earth under the plane.

[carusoam]

Great Post, Yetti!

Looks like you would have lived without the extra power....

It sure shows, the faster that first turn is initiated the more energy you have as you get to the runway...

Any delay, you are heading further away and have to come all the way back...

How much bank angle did you use for that?

Thanks for sharing the video!

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

Pretty much when the little plane lines up with the line in turn coordinator.  30 degrees  I believe.  It is probably easier to teach "fly the numbers"  I think it it is easier to think about decreasing energy.   when you have a certain amount left, the wheels should be touching down.   This runway tilts up hence the little bounce because I tend to forget that is going uphill and there should be a little more tilt up to the plane.

It's like docking a sailboat.  too much energy and you smack the pier.   too little energy and your bow person has to jump or gets wet or you have to "go around"

Edited March 22, 2018 by Yetti

[Txbyker]

12 hours ago, kortopates said:

The gear is down before the maneuver begins. No need to risk a gear up practicing these.

Even in an emergency engine out situation you'll glide to the airport gear up at best glide. At the airport, gear comes down while doing as many 360's above your high point as required. This point is abeam the intended landing point (e.g. instrument landing zone). Then you'll make the final 180 to a landing - all with the gear down. But holding off flaps till the runway is assured.

The only time the gear isn't down in the power off landing is the true emergency where you're not yet if you'll make it too the runway and only then it could be last second or never.

Anyway, worth practicing for much more than the CPL. Could save your life and pax some day.



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Paul, are you saying commercial 360’s should be done at best glide with gear extended?  I am in training and am doing them best glide, clean config.

Russ

[Yetti]

for reference I line up on downwind .8 to .9 nm on downwind.   then you end up about .5 nm from the end of the runway.

 

[kortopates]

7 hours ago, Txbyker said:

Paul, are you saying commercial 360’s should be done at best glide with gear extended?  I am in training and am doing them best glide, clean config.

Russ

No not really. Recognize though that the ACS will not test you on a 360 power off but only a 180 power and a emergency power off descent to the airport. What I am referring too is the importance of putting these two skills to together to include practicing a power off descent to the airport that ends in a 180 power off landing, with any required 360's done abeam the intended point of landing to loose altitude - but not the 360 commercial power off landing approach that has you doing a pattern like approach starting over the intended point of landing which is unrealistic.

So putting it together, the simulated emergency landing begins with gliding to the airport with gear up and prop back while directly aiming for the abeam downwind key position - offset directly from the intended landing position of about 1000' down from the numbers or runways IFR landing zone marks.  This is the standard downwind traffic pattern recommend in the FAA handbook as 0.5 to 1 mi and I personally aim for 3/4 nm offset from the runway. A half mile makes for steeper 180, a full mile is getting too far way to make it 800' agl abeam. Once here, gear goes down and prop forward,  just like you would practice doing doing 180 power off landings so we don't create a real emergency. 

Doing the 180 power off portion is real easy, too easy perhaps from 1000'. I suggest learn to do it from at least no more than 800' so you learn to make a constant 180 turn. 

Then do as many 360's to loose required altitude judging altitude loss per 360 which will be about 1K per 360. Although best glide was used to get to the airport  now we can transition to closer to Min sink airspeed to reduce sink rate. Don't need to go all the way to min sink though, as it is very close to stall, but adding 5 kts to normal Vref landing will allow for a nice in control landing and in control. But stall will not be an issue either unless one pulls back on the yoke, since we're not loading the wings but descending at less than 1g. Flaps aren't used till the runway is assured. 

So in IMO the only reason to keep the gear up and prop back below 1000' agl is if you got the airport in a real emergency without any surplus altitude and thus need to keep the gear up to help you make it to the threshold. But I would never practice this, its leads to many gear up landings with your CFI sitting right next too you  So instead I suggest practicing it the safe way and in the dire emergency you'll be prepared.

Edited March 22, 2018 by kortopates

[Yetti]

I also videoed some 60 degree banked turns.   They are not as pretty and won't see the light of the internet

[Txbyker]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

No not really. Recognize though that the ACS will not test you on a 360 power off but only a 180 power and a emergency power off descent to the airport. What I am referring too is the importance of putting these two skills to together to include practicing a power off descent to the airport that ends in a 180 power off landing, with any required 360's done abeam the intended point of landing to loose altitude - but not the 360 commercial power off landing approach that has you doing a pattern like approach starting over the intended point of landing which is unrealistic.

So putting it together, the simulated emergency landing begins with gliding to the airport with gear up and prop back while directly aiming for the abeam downwind key position - offset directly from the intended landing position of about 1000' down from the numbers or runways IFR landing zone marks.  This is the standard downwind traffic pattern recommend in the FAA handbook as 0.5 to 1 mi and I personally aim for 3/4 nm offset from the runway. A half mile makes for steeper 180, a full mile is getting too far way to make it 800' agl abeam. Once here, gear goes down and prop forward,  just like you would practice doing doing 180 power off landings so we don't create a real emergency. 

Doing the 180 power off portion is real easy, too easy perhaps from 1000'. I suggest learn to do it from at least no more than 800' so you learn to make a constant 180 turn. 

Then do as many 360's to loose required altitude judging altitude loss per 360 which will be about 1K per 360. Although best glide was used to get to the airport  now we can transition to closer to Min sink airspeed to reduce sink rate. Don't need to go all the way to min sink though, as it is very close to stall, but adding 5 kts to normal Vref landing will allow for a nice in control landing and in control. But stall will not be an issue either unless one pulls back on the yoke, since we're not loading the wings but descending at less than 1g. Flaps aren't used till the runway is assured. 

So in IMO the only reason to keep the gear up and prop back below 1000' agl is if you got the airport in a real emergency without any surplus altitude and thus need to keep the gear up to help you make it to the threshold. But I would never practice this, its leads to many gear up landings with your CFI sitting right next too you  So instead I suggest practicing it the safe way and in the dire emergency you'll be prepared.

Thanks Paul.  I was confusing steep spirals and power off 180 drills in my head.  Thanks for the information.  My IFR instructor (MAPA) tells me to aim up the runway with plenty of margin as you would rather run off the end of the runway in control than land prior to the runway.

Russ

[kortopates]

Thanks Paul.  I was confusing steep spirals and power off 180 drills in my head.  Thanks for the information.  My IFR instructor (MAPA) tells me to aim up the runway with plenty of margin as you would rather run off the end of the runway in control than land prior to the runway.
Russ

Exactly, that’s why I recommend the landing zone markers that are on any IFR runway since they are 1000’ from the threshold and easily identified abeam.
Enjoy the training, the CPL is a fun one.


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[Yetti]

If you are close enough to the runway on downwind, it would be really hard to aim to the runway without doing a pretty steeply banked turn that would use alot more energy.   I am over (ski up hill to get it under) or at the top of the white arch at the threshold when I throw the bottom speed brakes out (gear)   If you were at 90 knots at the threshold on downwind, then other things would need to happen.   Three things to manage energy the turn, the gear, the flaps.  And then a slip if still needed.

[Txbyker]

What power setting do you use for power off 180 landing if you are simulating engine out?  I have been cautioned about complete power off in an M20R due to the sink rate but I think the CME will require it if the plane has no stated restrictions.

Russ

[Yetti]

I pull the throttle all the way out.   The prop is set for cruise and the mixture is set for cruise.     Get closer to the runway to deal with the sink rate.  

I need to wear the other camera on my head and get shots of the distance from the runway.

[L. Trotter]

I hesitate to tell my power off 180º story, but It might benefit someone.

Two months ago I was performing my check ride for a CPL. I chose to use my Acclaim for the flight test. All the reference maneuvers, steep turns, short/soft field techniques and 3 Precision power landings were spot on. I wish I could have stopped there. The last maneuver was the power off 180º Precision spot landing. Flight conditions-clear skies, wind 20-25 kts with rather freq gusts to 35kts down the runway. Our normal.

At 1000 ft (pattern alt), 90 kts and abeam touch down point, throttle pulled full aft. started turn to base-then gear down. Making the runway was not an issue, hitting the exact point was. The head wind with gusts became a real unrecognized danger. As we all know, Moonies like to float (1 kt extra = 100 ft). That extra 100 ft on a CPL test is a bust. I was right where I needed to be maybe 5 feet above ground at 67 kts (per FFA examiner). Then the unthinkable.....I instantly lost a good 15 kt head wind. With an unexpected sudden 52 kt air speed, I experienced an immediate stall and my plane literally fell out of the sky just before the touch down site-all in about 2 milliseconds. I landed VERY firm of the main gear. At the time I did not notice any significant bounce, just a "were did that come from" feel. We returned to the hanger having completed the exam, engine running fine, no vibration.

Upon shut down, I immediately became nauseous at what I saw. You guest it, I had a prop strike. Seeing the bend tips of your prop can bring a grown man to tears. After a full inspection I had also literally blown out all of the rubber gear biscuits, TKS sling ring had chewed up the lower cowl by 1 inch, engine mount bent down 1/4 inch and the lower front edges of the main gear doors bent up. I still get sick thinking about it.

Items to consider:

-I'm not sure the power off, precision 180 (in the pattern) is realistic and necessary. Possible just a high risk/benefit maneuver. Yes, I completed many successful power off landings, but the risk was still present.

-Landing with no power (it's really like negative thrust) is a very different circumstance when compared to a std low power landing. Beware!

-Stalling a few feet off the ground is not recoverable. The entire experience was instantaneous.

-A prop strike may not be immediately noticed. A hard landing means taxi back, shut down and look.

-Even with insurance, a prop strike is expensive.

-Completing a CPL in a Mooney is very doable. It is also very difficult, thus making you a better pilot. Keeping speeds under control is a real challenge. There is nothing lazy about "lazy 8's". The whole point of a CPL is to perfect our piloting skills. No regret from this pilot.

In thinking this event over-a million times, I really don't know how I could have prevented this from happening, given the circumstances and requirement. Chose a different day? It's always windy at our airport. This was a typical day. Had the wind been consistent I would have had no problem. Plus, you don't get to choose when an engine will fail. Carry more speed? Then you bust your distant, particularly if you get a nice gust. Under a real engine failure, I don't think anyone cares if you were >100 ft from a "your" landing spot. Keep the speed and force the plane to the ground? Not happening.Typically, very little power under similar circumstances makes a big difference. This was not an option. These are just my thoughts.

After 25 years and 5000+ hrs of PIC I still have more to learn!

Wondering if I passed the CPL check ride? Well the answer is yes...and no. I passed initially. On the taxi ride back the examiner provided his assessment, all very complimentary. At one point he suggested my instruments were rigged. After recognizing the prop strike, he changed his mind and failed me. I get my plane back on Monday and have the pleasure of performing one more power off, precision 180º landing. Ya, I can't wait. haha

 

[midlifeflyer]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:43 PM, Txbyker said:

What power setting do you use for power off 180 landing if you are simulating engine out?  I have been cautioned about complete power off in an M20R due to the sink rate but I think the CME will require it if the plane has no stated restrictions.

Russ

Isn't that the whole idea? 

Most commercials are done in a Cutlass or Arrow. The power off 180 in the Arrow is often described in part as including:

3. Throw brick out window.

4. Follow brick down.

[donkaye]

On 3/21/2018 at 3:48 PM, kortopates said:

The gear is down before the maneuver begins. No need to risk a gear up practicing these.

Even in an emergency engine out situation you'll glide to the airport gear up at best glide. At the airport, gear comes down while doing as many 360's above your high point as required. This point is abeam the intended landing point (e.g. instrument landing zone). Then you'll make the final 180 to a landing - all with the gear down. But holding off flaps till the runway is assured.

The only time the gear isn't down in the power off landing is the true emergency where you're not yet if you'll make it too the runway and only then it could be last second or never.

Anyway, worth practicing for much more than the CPL. Could save your life and pax some day.



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In my opinion the configuration one should use is dependent on the SLOPE to the airport at the time of engine failure.  I like to see at least 6°.  That gives a 3° safety factor.  If the slope falls below 3°, there is a very good chance that you will not make the airport and immediately start looking for an off field landing spot.  This can be confirmed in several ways:  1. If you have a G500, you are in the best shape to quickly determine if you can make it.  After going to best glide clean and with the prop all the way back, set in the field elevation as the base altitude (worst case situation instead of TPA) and see if the range arc shows past the airport. Since wind is automatically taken into account, you have the best of all worlds.  2.  Most people have GPS so, after setting up best glide as discussed above,  press direct to the airport and observe the time to the airport.  Note the altitude you have to loose to get to the airport.  Let's assume it's 5,000 feet.  As a rule of thumb for a quick calculation, double the altitude in thousands if feet and strip off the zeros.  That would make it 10 minutes.  Since the best glide in most Mooneys gives about a 600-700 ft/min descent rate, just note that you will need a little more time than the rule of thumb 500 ft/min to reach the airport.  Compare the time to the airport with the GPS to the time you calculated.  The time you calculated should be greater than 5 minutes more. 

When you absolutely know you have the field made, then configure the plane, but still make sure you have at least 3° safety factor on the slope.  You can't get altitude back if you are on speed, but you have many options (speed brakes if you have them, gear, flaps, s-turns, and finally slips) if you have the extra time afforded by the additional slope.

The 180° power off approach needs to be practiced many times in order to meet the Commercial Standards, because unlike the more draggy airplanes the Mooney will float more if your speed is not just right.

[Yetti]

3 hours ago, L. Trotter said:

At 1000 ft (pattern alt), 90 kts and abeam touch down point, throttle pulled full aft. started turn to base-then gear down. Making the runway was not an issue, hitting the exact point was. The head wind with gusts became a real unrecognized danger. As we all know, Moonies like to float (1 kt extra = 100 ft). That extra 100 ft on a CPL test is a bust. I was right where I needed to be maybe 5 feet above ground at 67 kts (per FFA examiner). Then the unthinkable.....I instantly lost a good 15 kt head wind. With an unexpected sudden 52 kt air speed, I experienced an immediate stall and my plane literally fell out of the sky just before the touch down site-all in about 2 milliseconds. I landed VERY firm of the main gear. At the time I did not notice any significant bounce, just a "were did that come from" feel. We returned to the hanger having completed the exam, engine running fine, no vibration.

If you watch the speed on the video, I am top of gear arc when I start these things.  so 120 mph or 20 mph faster than you started out. I usually don't get to 90mph till about half way through the u turn.

Sorry about your prop.  It hurts alot to bend pretty planes.   Get back up on that horse and ride it, like you own it.

[jlunseth]

There are some fairly stiff and repeated warnings in the 231 POH about applying full power in a situation where the engine has cooled below specified levels.  Warnings as in THE ENGINE WILL QUIT.  This is a little bit of a problem with the power off 180, but a bigger problem with steep spirals if you go to idle, which you must, and then do three spirals down.  It wasn’t a big problem in the summer months, but I would up doing my CPL in November, and it was a problem as day temps cooled off.  What concerned me the most was the classic combination maneuver where the DPE might ask you to spiral down and then do a power off 180.  If you hit it, fine, but if there was a problem in the last phase of the 180 you would be in a regime of flight where the POH definitely warned against sudden application of full power for a go around.  I showed all this to my DPE (the warnings in the POH), and told her I just wouldn’t do the combined maneuver.  Its not called for in the PTS.  I didn’t mind doing the steep spirals to an altitude where I could power up slowly per the manual, but being the guy who gets to pay if the engine is fried, I was not going to do them where an immediate application of power for a go around might be necessary.