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Pre-purchase inspection advice


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Hello! I am a new user and have done some research on this forum, however it was still on able to find what I am looking for. I am interested in getting a prepurchase inspection on a Mooney located near New Orleans. Does anyone have any suggestions? Of course I would like to take it to some of the more well-known places in Texas, but I feel that with would be too far away. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you

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GSXR has given some great advice... and MIM has also...

If you are buying a plane that has the approximate value of your house... take it to TX, see a man named DMax... (least risk)

If you are buying a plane that has the approximate value of your car... The checklist is a great resource in the hands of a Mooney mechanic... (lower risk)

Have you seen the plane, read the logs, and like what you see? Proceed...

Not seen the plane yet, haven’t read the logs yet, inspections get expensive quick.  You don’t want to do that without having all you can know before sending it in...

PP thoughts only,

-a-

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7 hours ago, BigD said:

Hello! I am a new user and have done some research on this forum, however it was still on able to find what I am looking for. I am interested in getting a prepurchase inspection on a Mooney located near New Orleans. Does anyone have any suggestions? Of course I would like to take it to some of the more well-known places in Texas, but I feel that with would be too far away. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you

Email me with your email address and I will send you the check list I use.  There is much debate as to what should be involved, some say do an annual inspection, others say just a PPI.  The problem in my opinion is the standards for an Annual are too loose and are misinterpreted by maintenaners, and there are no standards for what is involved in a PPI.

I believe that the entire airplane should be opened for inspection, every panel with a screw should be opened, fuel tanks should be filled and checked for leaks, interior removed for inspection of the structure.  These pages have many sad stories of owners finding out at their first Annual that the plane has major issues which were missed at the PPI.

Leaking fuel tanks, corroded wing spars, corroded steel tubing,  worn out landing gear, worn out flight controls, worn out pumps, inoperative systems,  missed AD’s, no S/B compliance etc. etc. are quite common on Mooney’s.   This is the only chance you have to negotiate a better deal or walk away.  Done right it won’t be cheap, but buying a wreck will be more costly.

Clarence

 

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12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have a list of those who thought they knew better...

Never have understood the reason behind your list.

I have a list of airports that I have flown into [107 but needing to update], states that I have visited [47], states that I have flown to [19], states that I have lived in [8], homes that I have lived in [42], countries that I have visited [22], countries that I have lived in [2], but no list of cities, states or countries in which people I know have run into trouble . . . .

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39 minutes ago, Hank said:

Never have understood the reason behind your list.

I have a list of airports that I have flown into [107 but needing to update], states that I have visited [47], states that I have flown to [19], states that I have lived in [8], homes that I have lived in [42], countries that I have visited [22], countries that I have lived in [2], but no list of cities, states or countries in which people I know have run into trouble . . . .

I started making the list for two reasons... First so that I can better learn from other's mistakes and not make them myself. Buying an airplane that costs as much as my house is a scary proposition. I want all the info I can get to make the best decision possible.  Secondly, when others asked for my advice and then discounted it as being anecdotal, or biased, I thought, maybe I should have some evidence. I'm an engineer and thus believe in data. So I started collecting the data. 

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19 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

If your wife let you spend as much on your airplane as your house cost, Paul, you have got a good woman who has her priorities right!  :)

Jim

Or you bought in Austin either a long time ago or way out of town!

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59 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

If your wife let you spend as much on your airplane as your house cost, Paul, you have got a good woman who has her priorities right!  :)

 

39 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Or you bought in Austin either a long time ago or way out of town!

Ok so in theory, airplanes often cost as much as houses. In my case my plane is about 2/3rds of the cost of the house. Which is in Austin, bought only 3 years ago. But the house is only 1088 sq ft. And my wife has no idea how much has been spent on the plane. I started with an M20C and just kept spending a little more and a little more after that...  :ph34r:

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Thanks for everyone's advice on this subject.  I narrowed it down to three planes.  Two individuals, one broker.  The individuals were very reluctant to allow me to take their planes to a Mooney Service Center.  Interestingly, the Mooney website listed Pensacola Aviation as a MSC, but when I called them they said they no longer did that, and that the POC listed on the Mooney Aircraft website no longer worked there.  After getting voice mail at Mooney, (incidentally, they still haven't called back) I spoke with the good folks at MAPA, who immediately pointed me in the same direction as many here - the MSC in Longview.  They were very nice on the phone, quoted me $1450 for a PPI.  However, when I presented my offer to bring the aircraft to the MSC, one seller disagreed and offered contacts he knew.  The other seller said "NO," as he didn't want the plane to be opened up and then have "things discovered" which was fine, I get it, it's his plane and he doesn't want it looked at in depth.  The first seller basically said that they could find anything wrong with it at the MSC.  The third plane offered by a broker said this when I asked about bringing it to a MSC "bring your checkbook, because you won't get it back out of there."   It seemed that the mere mentioning of "mooney service center,"  or "Don Maxwell" would elicit the most severe responses from current Mooney owners offering their planes for sale, to the point of essentially eliminating two of the three.  

So, it's been a very interesting experience.  As a note, although I'm not familiar with Mooney ownership (although I have flown them), I did own an older Cessna 310 about ten years ago, so I have been through the process of buying and selling a plane.  Honestly, I've also been severely burned as well, and paid through the nose to get the plane right even after a successful PPI on the 310.  

In the end, I'll end up following the advice that the price of the plane may dictate how much I insist on taking it to a MSC or using an IA for a Pre-Purchase Inspection using perhaps, a "Plus" version of the inspection by adding some additional items I've read about here and seen.  As an owner of an older airplane in the past, I'm fairly convinced that although the PPI can cover many things, this is no guarantee that serious things can come up later.  In all honesty, the broker knows probably nothing about the plane he's offering to me whereas the individuals may be much more knowledgeable.  Either way, when you're buying a fifty-year old plush airplane, things will break. 

Sorry for the length, just wanted to say thanks and I look forward to more insight and advice as this process continues! 

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The only way a seller should be afraid to let DMAX or JD Casteel (Or DLK or AGL or Daytona etc) do a PPI on their airplane is if their airplane is un-airworthy. Most likely your offer will be such that it is contingent on a PPI, and that the seller is responsible for airworthiness items and you, the buyer, responsible for the others. If the airplane isn't as represented or has "issues" you can walk, or negotiate further for the mitigation of these issues. If there are airworthiness issues, the seller must fix them anyway, so perhaps he should have his checkbook ready.

But you have already answered a lot of the questions you have with the seller's being reluctant to letting an experienced and specific pro do the inspection. There are other fine planes available for sale that wont have this condition. Heck, when I sold my F, I WANTED the buyer to have a prebuy done at Don Maxwells. I knew what shape it was in and what it didnt need.

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1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

We have similar approaches to spousal involvement in aviation expenditures, Paul. The similarities end there, though, unfortunately as “my” Mooney is worth less than 1/10 the value of “her” house and our home. :(

Jim

 

For the record, Jim's wonderful wife is much smarter than he is! :wub:

No PPI - No sale. Period :angry:

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@mike_elliott is spot on here. Any seller who wouldn't allow a DMax, SWTA, AirMods, TopGun, or LASAR inspection (and there are others) will not see any of my money. 

Either they have no idea of what a PPI entails. Or they've got something to hide. Either way, I'd move along and look for something else. 

When my Mooney is up for sale, I'll fly it to the MSC of your choice and will be happy to leave it there for a proper PPI. And before you go to that much trouble, you can call JD and ask him about it. My Mooney is far from perfect and no vintage airplane is perfect. But it still has value and an MSC can validate that value through a PPI.

My first Mooney purchase was from Jimmy and David. I asked if I could send the plane to DMax for a PPI and the response was, "good choice." Don called me a week later and said there is a long list of squawks that need to be addressed, BUT "it's a really good airplane and I recommend you buy it." So I did.

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31 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Most likely your offer will be such that it is contingent on a PPI, and that the seller is responsible for airworthiness items and you, the buyer, responsible for the others. If the airplane isn't as represented or has "issues" you can walk, or negotiate further for the mitigation of these issues. If there are airworthiness issues, the seller must fix them anyway, so perhaps he should have his checkbook ready.

Heck, I'd say just make the offer contingent on the PPI, and that you can walk away for ANY reason within a certain number of days.  Just plan to renegotiate the price after the PPI.  There's little sense trying to prearrange who pays for what squawks, since you're going to be arguing about what's an airworthiness item and what's not anyway.  If you can't come to terms, you walk before the time limit without penalty.  Pretty similar to buying a house.  The seller should not squabble since he knows you've invested money in the PPI.

When I bought from All-American, I put in the offer I had 3 business days after the PPI to walk out, and they didn't bat an eye.  There was plenty of time after I got the PPI report to renegotiate some minor squawks, and that was that.

For the OP, the purpose of the PPI needs to be clear ahead of time.  People seem to have asked for any one of the following for PPI's:

  1. An independent actual annual inspection, with disassembly of necessary parts of the airframe and engine
  2. An unofficial independent inspection that is to the level of an annual
  3. An unofficial inspection that does not involve disassembly of parts other than parts intended to be removed (inspection panels, cowling, etc)
  4. An unofficial inspection that does not involve any disassembly of any type.

Personally, I think #3 is the appropriate one, but others disagree.  #3 would involve you paying a flat fee for an unofficial inspection.  Since it is not an actual inspection, the PPI mechanic cannot "ground" the aircraft or require repairs to be made.  Likewise, since disassembly is minimal, the risk of damage to the aircraft is minimal.  Both of these would be reasonable concerns of the seller if he thought you were asking for #1 or #2.  The comment from the one seller to "bring your checkbook" might imply he thinks that's what you are looking for.

TL;DR--decide what kind of PPI you actually want, and make sure the sellers understand that.  It might keep you from missing a possible deal (or they just still might be completely unreasonable).

Incidentally, both PPI's I did at MSC's were about $900-950 (at CrownAir and Dugosh).

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I think their are two primary reasons a seller refuses a PPI.

1: they may have something to hide

or

2: the buyer expects the seller to pay for some or all of the costs associated with the PPI.  So long as the buyer is willing to compensate the seller for the cost of the time and fuel to get the plane to and from wherever the buyer’s choice of PPI shop is, then pays for the inspection itself, I don’t see why they wouldn’t be OK with a buyers request for a PPI.

sometimes when I hear the stories about a seller refusing a PPI, I wonder if I’m not getting the whole story... maybe a PPI was just accomplished by a MSC a week prior and a previous buyer got cold feet, or maybe a buyer made the demand that the seller pay for the inspection. I don’t know... just a though.

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1 minute ago, Yetti said:

Fuel tank of a J model from the inside.  Looking towards the front of the wing.  Best I can tell that is some pretty good corrosion underneath the sealant.

 

What, the pink stuff? I thought he was showing a sloppy sealing job and the big gobs of sealant on the access panel screws that he needs to remove somehow . . . . .

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Many people selling planes don’t know, or remember what a PPI is... There isn’t a PP training for this...

Essentially the inspection can generate two lists....

1) AW issues

2) non AW issues...

The important ones are AW ones....

The 10 or 20 amu list are the old plane, non-aw ones, they are all the wear items that would be nice to get up to modern condition....

A seller that is afraid of the non-AW list,  as this can make negotiations difficult, is going to want to avoid the MSC...

Avoiding the MSC is like avoiding the truth.

As a buyer, you want to know the truth... both lists.  Negotiate the price to have the plane in AW condition or accept it as is...

Get the list of non-AW items because that is the list you are going to work on over the next year or five or ten....

You really have to be serious at the time you commit to PPI.  Solely because they are expensive... and take time...

The intention is to buy the plane, making sure it passes the AW tests...

Negotiations are done before the PPI.  You can expect things to fall apart quickly if you are negotiating after the PPI...

my Negotiations were pretty simple.  Everything listed in the ad has to be there and work properly, Any AW issues that come up, need to be addressed properly by the sellers wallet.... the PPI included flying a few approaches to demonstrate everything in the panel was actually working... ADF, VOR, GPS, ILS...

The plane that costs as much as a house, has few AW and non-AW issues.  The PPI takes equally long and is equally expensive as the plane that costs as much as a car....

The plane that only cost as much as a new Chevy... expect a lot of wear and tear items and things that aren’t quite right... Avionics not integrated...

You are buying a 40 year old plane at Chevy prices Don’t expect a modern living room with that...

Speak openly with the seller. You both have something to gain from the experience. Saving the last AMU by negotiating hard can be an expensive way to go...

If you are buying directly from the owner... Keep the door open for the dozen or so questions that are going to come up after you have the keys...  like what does this do?  Is this connected to that?

My biggest surprise was the nice updated GPS in my plane, was not connected to the nice updated JPI in the plane, and wasn’t connected to the FF gauge either... a couple of wires that would have delivered fuel available to get to the destination or not!  

How is that for an idea..?

There is lots of data that can be sent to a modern engine monitor, with settable alarms.... you may not learn this unless your seller wants to talk to you....

So much can be learned just by reading the logs... how old is the tank sealant, LG donuts, Avionics, 2020 compliance....AD list...

Review every line of the logs yourself.  Because it is expensive to pay somebody else to do something you can do.

Reject the plane before ever sending it to get a PPI...

It may be wishful thinking if sending a plane you have never seen, to a PPI without ever reading the logs....  People do this, but they are probably starting with a plane that costs as much as a house in San Francisco ...

PP thoughts only, back in the day, I enjoyed buying and selling machinery...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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