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Icing encounter


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6 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Try MEK for your teeth, it really whiten them.:D

I like wd40 since it keeps me teeth lubed in case I need to bite through steel cables.  I don’t care if my teeth are white.  Ever see jaws in bond?  His teeth weren’t white either.  Wd40

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Great write-up @jaylw314!

Almost as much detail as Richard puts together.

There were a few things I was looking for in your discussion....

1) what level was the freezing?  How stable was it? Usually above this level it is a challenge to get moisture, limiting the ice from sticking.  Lots of water lofted up by mountains might not be very stable.  Super cooled droplets can be another problem....

1a) what level was the thawing?  A few degrees above 0°C/32°F the ice comes off quickly

2) Did you plan a U-turn.  If the icing turns heavy, the U-turn might be the best way to go...  since the icing was unexpected, heavy icing can be there too. You only get a few minutes of heavy icing...

3) Did you let ATC know you were seeing ice?  It might be a good idea to let them know what you are seeing.  If you need the U-turn, you have informed ATC what is happening...

I have little icing experience.  Planning got easier when the outs included flying above the freeze altitude.  Having warmer air (above freezing) below. Ability to fly around the clouds....

Great writing and topic!

-a-

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4 hours ago, Piloto said:

If the ram air inlet is open engine roughness is likely in icing conditions. Rain-X stays longer on the wing than WD-40. 

I definitely had it closed.  My checklist for entering IMC includes it even though I've never opened it...

Pitot heat on

Ram air closed

Cowl flaps closed

Cabin heat, defrost and vent full open

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11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great write-up @jaylw314!

Almost as much detail as Richard puts together.

There were a few things I was looking for in your discussion....

1) what level was the freezing?  How stable was it? Usually above this level it is a challenge to get moisture, limiting the ice from sticking.  Lots of water lofted up by mountains might not be very stable.  Super cooled droplets can be another problem....

1a) what level was the thawing?  A few degrees above 0°C/32°F the ice comes off quickly

2) Did you plan a U-turn.  If the icing turns heavy, the U-turn might be the best way to go...  since the icing was unexpected, heavy icing can be there too. You only get a few minutes of heavy icing...

3) Did you let ATC know you were seeing ice?  It might be a good idea to let them know what you are seeing.  If you need the U-turn, you have informed ATC what is happening...

I have little icing experience.  Planning got easier when the outs included flying above the freeze altitude.  Having warmer air (above freezing) below. Ability to fly around the clouds....

Great writing and topic!

-a-

Freezing level was just about 10,000.  Like I mentioned, it started out just above 10,000 and then dropped below 9,000.  Once I got down below, temps increased to about 36 degF, and the ice rapidly came off.

I was planning a U turn once I got into IMC, and told ATC as such and that I was picking up light clear icing.  That was the point they told me there was a PIREP south of Medford for light mixed icing as well.

If I had gotten to a higher altitude ahead of time, I would have had more vision on the lay of the land/clouds, and more options.  I know my M20J can make it to 15,500 MSL slowly but easily, and I should have done that.

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10,000 is about where I have had icing experiences over that same route.Usually it's because I'm south bound and have to climb up thru it,while north bound I'm already at high teens in colder ,drier air.Even with fiki tks ,I never take it for granted that the tks will handle the ice...for that I think a good strategy is to monitor the color of radar returns on nexrad ( Sirius Xm is now offering 2.5 min latency)...it's the pink zones that get my attention...I think that equates to freezing rain or sleet.Generally if you flying thru clouds that aren't showing a good return...rate of icing is trace and much slower than going thru a pink zone...good experience for you ,thanks for sharing

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37 minutes ago, thinwing said:

10,000 is about where I have had icing experiences over that same route.Usually it's because I'm south bound and have to climb up thru it,while north bound I'm already at high teens in colder ,drier air.Even with fiki tks ,I never take it for granted that the tks will handle the ice...for that I think a good strategy is to monitor the color of radar returns on nexrad ( Sirius Xm is now offering 2.5 min latency)...it's the pink zones that get my attention...I think that equates to freezing rain or sleet.Generally if you flying thru clouds that aren't showing a good return...rate of icing is trace and much slower than going thru a pink zone...good experience for you ,thanks for sharing

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.  I have both Sirius XM on my 530W, and FIS-B on my tablet, and I was watching both like a hawk.  There were absolutely nothing on the radar within 50 miles of me except for a few dark green spots in the area.  Yet what I ran into was clearly supercooled liquid drops, which should have shown up on NEXRAD, right? 

Bear in mind that (at least in theory), frozen water gives a poorer radar return than liquid water, so anything that shows pink is already pretty significant.

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23 hours ago, Piloto said:

I am impress with your memory. I found out that the Mooney can tolerate ice pretty well but the speed drops. Something that may help you on your next icing adventure is to apply Rain-X for plastic on the wing leading edge and propeller.

José 

If crap like  this actually worked we'd all have teflon on our leading edges.

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Well rainex,teflon,wd40,lemon scented pledge,cat urine probably work a little,doesn't make icing worse,and in the mind of the user gave some mental consolation...at least until flying through some pink return nex rad hard up against the Sierra Nevada!Than its crying time again!

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23 hours ago, PDXBravo said:

I'm based in the Portland, OR area as well.  Your story reminds me of the "IFR catch-22" prior to buying my Bravo (FIKI & turbo), IE: you need an instrument rating to fly in clouds, but anytime there are clouds, icing is almost guaranteed.  Prior to my Bravo (in a Grumman Tiger) my MO was to only fly in IMC above the freezing level and this is, as you know, virtually impossible during winter in the Pacific NW when the MEAs are well into the freezing levels.  As such, I wouldn't fly instruments and would quickly lose my currency and proficiency.  With the Bravo, I'm primarily interested in determining where the tops are (Cloud Forecast in ForeFlight) so I can get on top, then I only have to deal with ice on climb out and descent.  

BTW:  My experience with the Cloud Forecast is it typically understates the thickness of a layer.  In the Pacific NW, FIKI TKS and a turbo has increased the utility value of my flying 10X.  I can fly on all but the worst weather days.  I simply wouldn't consider an airplane without both in the future.

As a follow up, I'm pretty sure the Cloud Forecast on Foreflight uses the same RAP model that the NWS uses for the Graphical Forecast for Aviation.  I'm not sure because I don't use FF, but I remember reading somewhere that the RAP model is good for forecasting stratus clouds, but underestimates cumulus clouds

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23 hours ago, PDXBravo said:

I'm based in the Portland, OR area as well.  Your story reminds me of the "IFR catch-22" prior to buying my Bravo (FIKI & turbo), IE: you need an instrument rating to fly in clouds, but anytime there are clouds, icing is almost guaranteed.  Prior to my Bravo (in a Grumman Tiger) my MO was to only fly in IMC above the freezing level and this is, as you know, virtually impossible during winter in the Pacific NW when the MEAs are well into the freezing levels.  As such, I wouldn't fly instruments and would quickly lose my currency and proficiency.  With the Bravo, I'm primarily interested in determining where the tops are (Cloud Forecast in ForeFlight) so I can get on top, then I only have to deal with ice on climb out and descent.  

BTW:  My experience with the Cloud Forecast is it typically understates the thickness of a layer.  In the Pacific NW, FIKI TKS and a turbo has increased the utility value of my flying 10X.  I can fly on all but the worst weather days.  I simply wouldn't consider an airplane without both in the future.

Great post btw.  What do you consider your limits for the top of weather you are comfortable with in the bravo?

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I've mentioned this before- 

One is not safe in an airplane until one is "tempered". You don't get tempered until you do something in an airplane that scares the living crap out of you and you know you did it to yourself. Once tempered, flying takes on a completely different perspective.

You actually did pretty good in analyzing a deteriorating situation and working out a good solution. 

ALWAYS leave yourself and out. ALWAYS have somewhere to go every minute you are airborne. Thinking ahead saves lives.

Luckily I learned about icing at an earlier time, (I've had all the icing I want after 50 years professional flying) mostly in a Navajo with full deice. I've carried more ice than I should have but I learned. Most of my early icing was on the west coast. Always bear in mind that sometimes you can go down (even IMC) and get warmer air. Out west we usually climb 2-4000 ft and get above the icing level but back east it can extend for many thousands of feet up. Actually lost a very close friend to icing in a Bonanza as he tried to climb over it by going to 13,000 instead of going down to 6000 in the clear in N Minnesota.  

 

The most I ever collected was on approach to KMDW 31R from the outer mkr to mins so don't think once you get down lower the problem ends. BTW, I collected over 3" on most of the 737 that day in less than 5 mins on the approach. 

Again, you did alright. You learned a valuable lesson to carry forward in your future flights. S/E piston and icing on the west coast are not compatable. 

 

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I've mentioned this before- 
One is not safe in an airplane until one is "tempered". You don't get tempered until you do something in an airplane that scares the living crap out of you and you know you did it to yourself. Once tempered, flying takes on a completely different perspective.
You actually did pretty good in analyzing a deteriorating situation and working out a good solution. 
ALWAYS leave yourself and out. ALWAYS have somewhere to go every minute you are airborne. Thinking ahead saves lives.
Luckily I learned about icing at an earlier time, (I've had all the icing I want after 50 years professional flying) mostly in a Navajo with full deice. I've carried more ice than I should have but I learned. Most of my early icing was on the west coast. Always bear in mind that sometimes you can go down (even IMC) and get warmer air. Out west we usually climb 2-4000 ft and get above the icing level but back east it can extend for many thousands of feet up. Actually lost a very close friend to icing in a Bonanza as he tried to climb over it by going to 13,000 instead of going down to 6000 in the clear in N Minnesota.  
 
The most I ever collected was on approach to KMDW 31R from the outer mkr to mins so don't think once you get down lower the problem ends. BTW, I collected over 3" on most of the 737 that day in less than 5 mins on the approach. 
Again, you did alright. You learned a valuable lesson to carry forward in your future flights. S/E piston and icing on the west coast are not compatable. 
 


Great advice. Until one has gotten into a situation that awakens themselves of the risks, you certainly aren’t tempered.


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I departed on Wednesday from Knoxville.  Temp on the ground was 30 and initial climb was ssw bound to 9000.  There was overcast a few miles to my left, but clear to the right.  I was climbing in vmc about 5-8 miles west of the overcast in clear above and below.  I looked at my wings and saw snow appeared to be right below me reflecting in the sun.  Couldn’t see any except for reflecting in the sun.   It didn’t restrict visibility at all.  I guess the slow was floating 5 miles laterally upwind before falling.  It was very strange, as no visible moisture in my immediate location or above me.  I didn’t experience any icing, but just though I would share it.  Im guessing the winds were blowing the clouds easterly much faster than the falling snow.  There was a good tail wind for our trip. ;)

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We had some trace mixed icing a week ago leaving Kitchener.  No precipitation on the ground, but cloud bases 1000 tops 6000.  Icing began climbing through 4000 at about -10C which was unexpected.  We got on top quickly, but the ice remained until landing for customs in Ohio.

One thing I noted (based on the water dripping off), was the tail had apparently more accumulation than the wings.  Something to watch more closely in the future.

 

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49 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

We had some trace mixed icing a week ago leaving Kitchener.  No precipitation on the ground, but cloud bases 1000 tops 6000.  Icing began climbing through 4000 at about -10C which was unexpected.  We got on top quickly, but the ice remained until landing for customs in Ohio.

One thing I noted (based on the water dripping off), was the tail had apparently more accumulation than the wings.  Something to watch more closely in the future.

 

The tail would make sense--ice is supposed to accumulate first on thin objects, and the stabilizers are thinner comparatively than the wings

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23 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

.....was the tail had apparently more accumulation than the wings.....

I’ve heard for decades that “thin surfaces accumulate more ice than thick ones” and accepted it as gospel.  

I now wonder if it is true.  

It is true that a given thickness of ice is a larger percentage of airfoil thickness than that same thickness on a fatter wing.   The disruption of airflow may be greater as the thinner structure is proroprionally more distorted.  

So a trace of ice on the horizontal stabilizer may be more alarming than the same trace on the several-times thicker wing.  

A quick review of the literature doesn’t turn up any thickness/accretion rate influence.

Ice formation on power lines is a related issue.   I found several interesting (to me) articles on ice accretion on wires.  Temperature, wind speed, dew point spread, exposure time and liquid water content of the air are variables considered.   Wire diameter is not a factor.  

Ref: Ice Formation on Power Lines

Ice anywhere on the plane is cause for concern.  Little doubt there.  

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I think I can speak for just about everyone here that at one time or another we have all experienced that "sinking feeling", aka adrenaline rush, and it's not pleasant. I can recall at least two times in my three decades of flying that I was in a bad situation and it's a horrible, sometimes out of body experience. You kept your wits about you and as a result saved the day. Others may have pressed on to disastrous results.

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36 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I think I can speak for just about everyone here that at one time or another we have all experienced that "sinking feeling", aka adrenaline rush, and it's not pleasant. I can recall at least two times in my three decades of flying that I was in a bad situation and it's a horrible, sometimes out of body experience. You kept your wits about you and as a result saved the day. Others may have pressed on to disastrous results.

Thanks, I think if my wife had heard my internal chant of "you idiot, you idiot, you idiot" that probably would not have helped... :huh:

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6 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Thanks, I think if my wife had heard my internal chant of "you idiot, you idiot, you idiot" that probably would not have helped... :huh:

I know exactly what you mean. One of my two adrenaline moments came a few minutes after takeoff when the plane started descending and I couldn't figure out why, even though she was producing power and it was a beautiful clear, 85 degree day. It got to the point where I had to place my left elbow around the yoke and pull back that way to get it to stop descending, while going for the trim with my right. In the end I had a runaway trim situation due to the trim switch getting stuck in the nose down position.  To this day my wife doesn't know about that situation.

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3 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I know exactly what you mean. One of my two adrenaline moments came a few minutes after takeoff when the plane started descending and I couldn't figure out why, even though she was producing power and it was a beautiful clear, 85 degree day. It got to the point where I had to place my left elbow around the yoke and pull back that way to get it to stop descending, while going for the trim with my right. In the end I had a runaway trim situation due to the trim switch getting stuck in the nose down position.  To this day my wife doesn't know about that situation.

Smooth!  Hope she doesn't follow MS herself :) 

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On 3/19/2018 at 2:05 PM, jaylw314 said:

The tail would make sense--ice is supposed to accumulate first on thin objects, and the stabilizers are thinner comparatively than the wings

I went to a  presentation by a NASA engineer who specializes in airframe icing.  They had a video of a tailplane stall they created using a foam cast on the elevator to simulate accumulated ice.  The yolk literally jumped out of the pilot's hands, and he was heard to shout that they weren't doing that again ever.

However, tailplane stalls are far more frequent on turbine twins in a full flaps position.  To get out of the stall I described all they had to do was raise the flaps.  Doesn't seem to bother our airplanes to the same extent.  I don't know about the wings, though I've heard more than one pilot say that Mooneys don't carry much ice.  If I ever see it accumulating I plan to treat it as a full blown emergency and get the heck out of there.

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On the early flat windshield Boeings (727, 737, 707)  your first indication of icing would be on the axle nut of the windshield wiper. Ice would start to build there and it was visible right in front of your eyes. I've seen it 3" out into space from there.

Actually one thing most of you will never get a chance of seeing is St. Elmo's Fire. Quite an experience at night up high. Actually used to bring the FAs up front to see it. 

Oh, wait, I'm day VFR now and enjoying it!!  :-)

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