logbooks for annual

[Jerry Pressley]

I know this has been covered a number of times but i ran into a situation lately where the owner would not let the shop have the original logbooks and the shop would not annual his plane without them.  I understand the owners part but after hearing the shops reasoning I understand that also.  shop says they are responsible for past sins if they sign it off and without the original logs they cannot know what has been done before that might come back to bite them.  Copies can be altered to cover lots of things.   So owner found a shop that would sing off in the dark.  

[jetdriven]

The owner brings the logs and lest the shop inspect them and verify everything then takes them home when he leaves. Also, leave a full copy of the logs wirh the shop in a binder for them. Bring logs back the day the annual is done for them to sign. Those logs are worth 20-30k or even more. We keep them locked in a gun safe. 

[Jerry Pressley]

at one time there was a shop.  Dawn Aviation in the Wilmington Del area that kept logs from every plane they worked on.  I bought a 65 C from a Lady there and resold it as is where to a friend of Dawn.  They offered to make him copies for $500 but even to him they would not release the original logs.  Years later i bought the same plane from a man in NC and the only logbook entry was the one I made saying Dawn kept the logs.  It is now in the parts place here.  When dawn went under there were a few hundred sets of logs sold as part of the auction.  I didnt know until too late or i would have retired on lost logs.   JP.

[midlifeflyer]

43 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The owner brings the logs and lest the shop inspect them and verify everything then takes them home when he leaves. Also, leave a full copy of the logs wirh the shop in a binder for them. Bring logs back the day the annual is done for them to sign. Those logs are worth 20-30k or even more. We keep them locked in a gun safe. 

Don't even need to bring them back to be signed if the shop is willing to give you signed stickers.

[cliffy]

I've got my popcorn and coke out while I watch how this plays out.'

THIS will be interesting to watch :-)

[ArtVandelay]

Those logs are worth 20-30k or even more. We keep them locked in a gun safe. 

If you have an electronic copy are originals that important?
I guess you would not be able to use OPs mechanic.

[RobertGary1]

Copied are 100% legal for the faa so they should be good enough for the shop. They just need to verify past ADs. 

I suspect they want to hold them for some reason as leverage  

 

-Robert

[Marauder]

at one time there was a shop.  Dawn Aviation in the Wilmington Del area that kept logs from every plane they worked on.  I bought a 65 C from a Lady there and resold it as is where to a friend of Dawn.  They offered to make him copies for $500 but even to him they would not release the original logs.  Years later i bought the same plane from a man in NC and the only logbook entry was the one I made saying Dawn kept the logs.  It is now in the parts place here.  When dawn went under there were a few hundred sets of logs sold as part of the auction.  I didnt know until too late or i would have retired on lost logs.   JP.

I sublet my hangar from Dawn for a number of years through the late 90s until around 2010. They were based at KILG. Don, the owner (named spelled right) owned Dawn and their primary business outside of the FBO was wreck recoveries. Many of those held logs were part of the insurance process and Dawn held them during whatever salvage process was ongoing. In some cases, the planes never were sold and Dawn was left holding the wrecks. Hence their desire to hold the logs.

I don’t ever recall hearing that their maintenance shop was holding logs. They certainly never held mine.


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[bradp]

Provide the shop with a full and legible set of logbook COPIES and an accurate equipment list so they can do AD searches.  I  would be willing to bring originals in on pickup day for a written logbook entry.  Stickers usually suffice.  I don't let anyone keep my logs that I don't know or trust.  My AP/IA who pretty much lived in his hangar across from mine was an exception.  Dorn at Henry Weber is another person I've trusted to keep the logs while the plane was in annual.  There are two other MSCs on the east coast that I've used (in name only places - not usually mentioned on our site) that I got a funny feeling from and wouldn't let keep the original logs in their possession.  Copies suffice.  If the shop is making a fuss find another shop.  Much of this is about two-way trust. 

[takair]

I can see both sides of this, but if you can’t trust them with your books are you going to trust them with your plane?  

The best compromise is to provide copies.  As an IA, it does feel better to see the entire history of a plane.  You get a feel for how it was maintained and how much scrutiny it needs.  No books, more scrutiny ($$). That said, logbooks often show up in an unorganized mess and are then easily misplaced.  If you do provide them, try to organize them and perhaps even put them in a small file box with each log in it’s own slot.  This way you and your mechanic can inventory the books coming and going.

[Guest]

I have about 100 sets of customer logs kept in fire proof filing cabinets.  I’ve had owners misplace their logs leaving us to do a search of other local shops to find them.  The only ones I’ve misplaced were for my own airplane, which were found in a different filing cabinet.

I take the responsibility of keeping my customers logs seriously.

Clarence

[Ned Gravel]

Clarence.  Our friends of the Trump side of the border may not be aware of the function of the Journey log under our aviation regulations. My journey log that I keep with the aircraft mirrors all the entries in my tech logs kept in your cabinets so we both have a historical record, although the tech logs have more info on the engine, prop, and airframe components.   

[Hank]

Ned is right, we don't kniw a ything about journey logs because we don't keep them.

I'm not as paranoid about my logbooks as some others here, but there's no one without a warrant, badge and gun who's gonna tell me I can't have them. When I moved, my new IA took them home to do the AD search; that year and every year since, he gives me stickers to put in each log. 

My pile of papers is beginning to overflow the zip-covered 3 ring binder they live in. It's not anything that will fit in a "small cabinet," especially if the other planes' logbooks are similarly thorough.

[kortopates]

45 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

Clarence.  Our friends of the Trump side of the border may not be aware of the function of the Journey log under our aviation regulations. My journey log that I keep with the aircraft mirrors all the entries in my tech logs kept in your cabinets so we both have a historical record, although the tech logs have more info on the engine, prop, and airframe components.   

Tech logs and Journey logs? I am a bit confused because I thought I understood a bit about the journey log. I have a Canadian IFR student with a canadian registered J model and I help him fill out the journey log after each of our flights. Since he appears to keep all his maintenance stickers in his Journey log, I assumed his journey logbook replaced the purpose of our aircraft log book since it has both the maintenance records plus log entries for each flight - like journeys of the airframe.  

But Canadian aircraft also keep tech logs? Or maybe this is for tech's to log all their maintenance activities? Just curious since you folks apparently do a lot of logging!

I keep the equivalent on a journey log in an excel spreadsheet where I track each flight, each maintenance activity and due dates for scheduled maintenance by hours or time. But of course entirely unofficial. 

[cliffy]

Heck- the Aussies have to sign off a daily preflight inspection before they go flying! :-0

[Ned Gravel]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

Tech logs and Journey logs? I am a bit confused because I thought I understood a bit about the journey log. I have a Canadian IFR student with a canadian registered J model and I help him fill out the journey log after each of our flights. Since he appears to keep all his maintenance stickers in his Journey log, I assumed his journey logbook replaced the purpose of our aircraft log book since it has both the maintenance records plus log entries for each flight - like journeys of the airframe.  

But Canadian aircraft also keep tech logs? Or maybe this is for tech's to log all their maintenance activities? Just curious since you folks apparently do a lot of logging!

I keep the equivalent on a journey log in an excel spreadsheet where I track each flight, each maintenance activity and due dates for scheduled maintenance by hours or time. But of course entirely unofficial. 

The journey log is legal document in Canada and is required to accompany the aircraft on all flights in excess of 25 nm.  Engine, prop and airframe all have their own tech log.  About two inches thickness of paper all up.  

[Guest]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

Tech logs and Journey logs? I am a bit confused because I thought I understood a bit about the journey log. I have a Canadian IFR student with a canadian registered J model and I help him fill out the journey log after each of our flights. Since he appears to keep all his maintenance stickers in his Journey log, I assumed his journey logbook replaced the purpose of our aircraft log book since it has both the maintenance records plus log entries for each flight - like journeys of the airframe.  

But Canadian aircraft also keep tech logs? Or maybe this is for tech's to log all their maintenance activities? Just curious since you folks apparently do a lot of logging!

I keep the equivalent on a journey log in an excel spreadsheet where I track each flight, each maintenance activity and due dates for scheduled maintenance by hours or time. But of course entirely unofficial. 

The Journey log book is the legal document, it records all flights and all maintenance completed.  Transport Canada uses this log book to prove who was flying the plane if there is an investigation for wrong doing.

The technical logs are up to 5 sections, airframe log (essentially a copy of the journey log) a mods log for recording of AD’s and S/B S/I and STC, engine log with section for engine AD’s etc, a propeller log with a section for Propeller AD’s and a components log for dynamic components of a helicopter.

All are 8X11” books contained in a binder.  The AD Log system of logs is very similar.

Clarence

[midlifeflyer]

20 hours ago, cliffy said:

I've got my popcorn and coke out while I watch how this plays out.'

THIS will be interesting to watch :-)

The kinda bottom line is, people view their obligations differently. Despite the general acceptability of copies and electronic records, as well as formal FAA guidance on the subject, there will be old school mechanics who see their responsibilities as confirming full history by viewing what they consider to be the "original" records. 

You are not going to "win" the popcorn argument. You are going to (a) give him the records; (b) reach a compromise of some sort (a number have already been suggested); or (c) go elsewhere.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

You are not going to "win" the popcorn argument. You are going to (a) give him the records; (b) reach a compromise of some sort (a number have already been suggested); or (c) go elsewhere.

Regardless of which option is used, no A&P is going to keep my logs and not let me have them . . . The sun set on Dawn, which is good as I would never have used them a secind time after getting my logs back from the first event.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Hank

[cliffy]

My interest was to sit back and see how many permutations we are going to see on how logs are presented to the shop and what the shops require.

I know several owners who will not present the actual logs to the shop because they don't want to be held hostage for the bill. I know other shops and IAs who actually go through each and every page of a customers logs and find every discrepancy in them and make them correct in the end, all for the owner's benefit. All the dependencies can be tallied on a separate sheet of paper and reviewed with the owner. Its interesting to see how many mistakes can be found in a 50 year old log book. There are honest shops that look out for the owners best interest and then? 

The actual regs on what records to keep and what form to use is actually pretty thin, at least here in the USA 

Likewise I'd never do business with a company that HAD to keep my log books against my desires. Its my choice whether or not to ALLOW them to keep them in a safe place. The FAA has even weighed in on this subject in years past. 

[Marauder]

Regardless of which option is used, no A&P is going to keep my logs and not let me have them . . . The sun set on Dawn, which is good as I would never have used them a secind time after getting my logs back from the first event.

I’m really surprised to hear that Dawn kept the logs and refused to return them. They never asked for mine. I really suspect the logs thing was part of their aircraft recovery business. They stored the wrecks and I suspect required the logs to be in their possession to ensure they got paid when the owner decided what to do with the plane. I also know that a number of the wrecks were never going to be reclaimed by their owner’s since they didn’t survive.

When Dawn showed me the hangar they were going to sublet to me, it was filled with wrecks. I suspect when the DRBA took over the airport, they made them remove the wrecks to be able to keep the limited hangar space available for flying planes.


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[RobertGary1]

 

13 minutes ago, cliffy said:

 

. I know other shops and IAs who actually go through each and every page of a customers logs and find every discrepancy in them and make them correct in the end, all for the owner's benefit. All the dependencies can be tallied on a separate sheet of paper and reviewed with the owner. Its interesting to see how many mistakes can be found in a 50 year old log book. There are honest shops that look out for the owners best interest and then? 

 

This is the main reason I wouldn’t give them full logs. What possible benefit could I get from paying a mechanic to look at 50 year old oil changes? As long as the ADs, STCs etc are accounted for you’re good to go. Logs get lots in fires too and the faa is fine with just that. 

-Robert 

[jaylw314]

My IA has been fine with copies.  I scanned the old small logbooks and sorted them into 8.5x11 pages, and have kept all new entries on 8.5x11 pages.  That makes them easier to keep and index everything in full size binders, so I keep one for originals and one for maintenance, which goes in the plane at annual.

[RLCarter]

It amazes me that some of you trust your Maintenance Shop or A&P/IA to do Repairs, Preventative Maintenance or Alterations on your Aircraft but don’t trust them with the Maintenance Records (Log Books). I understand that should the records be lost that the value of your aircraft was just reduced and that is why I keep a photo copy of the log books, it is for my benefit and the only time an A&P/IA would see them is if the Original needed to be reconstructed.

Section 91.405 requires each owner or operator to ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries in the maintenance records to indicate that the aircraft has been approved for return to service. So this becomes a grey area when you are handed a “sticker” to placed in your records because your logs are in their “Safe Place”.

I see three scenarios that can play out

1)      You take your aircraft & logs to your favorite shop and you get both back…
2)      You take your aircraft & logs to your favorite shop and they loose your logs…
3)      You take your aircraft & logs to your favorite shop and they hold your logs ransom…

The third scenario should only happen if there is a disagreement on the final price which is generally a lack of communication, did you get an estimate?, did they do unauthorized repairs?, etc..etc. Shops that hold logs for ransom and release the aircraft are going about it wrong, just file a Mechanics Lien with the FAA and go on, on the other hand if the bill was paid and they still are holding your logs, contact the FSDO and file theft charges with the local authorities. I would think most shops want to reduce their liability by returning your logs rather than holding on to them.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, cliffy said:

I know several owners who will not present the actual logs to the shop because they don't want to be held hostage for the bill. I know other shops and IAs who actually go through each and every page of a customers logs and find every discrepancy in them and make them correct in the end, all for the owner's benefit. All the dependencies can be tallied on a separate sheet of paper and reviewed with the owner. Its interesting to see how many mistakes can be found in a 50 year old log book. There are honest shops that look out for the owners best interest and then? 

I suspect no two IAs are going to agree on whether to do this, and what to cite as an issue or not if they do.   I can easily see this sort of thing winding up being very much not to the benefit of the owner.

I've heard too many stories of shops or A&Ps keeping log books and then the books getting lost due to fire, bankruptcy, or the demise of whoever is keeping it.   None of those may be completely predictable or even under the control of whoever is keeping the logs, regardless of their intent or competence.

A lot of very good IAs/APs/shops are fine with stickers.   Some are not.  Finding a maintainer that is compatible with how you're comfortable doing things seems to be the trick.