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Advice on a Mooney purchase


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I am in the market for a commuter Mooney, mission is a 200nm leg, East of the Mississippi, found an 65' E model near me in southern Ohio for around $40,000, 2300TT 300 SMOH, it needs the fuel tanks sealed. Any other red flags to worry about, any suggestions for a shop to do a pre-buy inspection in OH or WV? Thanks in advance!

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8 hours ago, Sethg52000 said:

I am in the market for a commuter Mooney, mission is a 200nm leg, East of the Mississippi, found an 65' E model near me in southern Ohio for around $40,000, 2300TT 300 SMOH, it needs the fuel tanks sealed. Any other red flags to worry about, any suggestions for a shop to do a pre-buy inspection in OH or WV? Thanks in advance!

Is this the one for sale at PMH?.

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20 minutes ago, Sethg52000 said:

Yes it is, realizing fully that the seller may be in this forum. Are you familar with it? I had a nice talk with the gentleman. Getting my ducks in a row; however I have not seen it in person yet. I am a serious buyer for the right aircraft. 

I saw that aircraft in person and had lunch with the seller (really nice guy, too).  That was almost three years ago.  That should tell you something.  I don't really want to discuss it publicly, but feel free to PM me for my own impressions.

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Welcome aboard, Seth,

There are a few names for the service...

Pre purchase inspection, PPI, pre-buy... 100 hour inspection, annual...

It is a piece of insurance, to minimize the known unknowns...

You intend this to be your ride to work, you don’t want any downtime because a maintenance disaster befalls you...

Get this out of the way first...

The short list... tubes, tanks, and cams. Most of these have been identified. Expect the unexpected... get a good look at everything.

PP ideas only, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

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16 hours ago, Sethg52000 said:

Yes it is, realizing fully that the seller may be in this forum. Are you familar with it? I had a nice talk with the gentleman. Getting my ducks in a row; however I have not seen it in person yet. I am a serious buyer for the right aircraft. 

I'm willing to talk off line about this one as well. I looked at it previous to the current owner.

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22 hours ago, Yetti said:

Really the best thing to do is search for prebuy.   Lots of good information out there.   Have $10K in the bank after the purchase to fix things

I disagree with the pay to fix things. I would qualify that by saying have x$ in the bank to do things you elect to do like panel improvements, interior, etc. Not fix things that the seller should have done. 

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5 minutes ago, PTK said:

I disagree with the pay to fix things. I would qualify that by saying have x$ in the bank to do things you elect to do like panel improvements, interior, etc. Not fix things that the seller should have done. 

I thought it was to fix things missed on the PPI, negotiated away, or that pass PPI but fail soon after using a plane that has been sitting . . .

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59 minutes ago, Hank said:

I thought it was to fix things missed on the PPI, negotiated away, or that pass PPI but fail soon after using a plane that has been sitting . . .

Things should not get missed on the PPI. Period. Hold the party performing it accountable. Funds to fix things negotiated away are already accounted for in the negotiated sale price and in the buyer’s bank account. Nothing over and above.

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2 minutes ago, wcb said:

Well I have to say if you are looking at E's this one is one that has to be looked at.  What a job they have done.  A bit pricey, but the most modern E on the market.

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/21352509/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21

And the good thing is at that price it should available for a long, long time.

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

Things should not get missed on the PPI. Period. Hold the party performing it accountable. Funds to fix things negotiated away are already accounted for in the negotiated sale price and in the buyer’s bank account. Nothing over and above.

Not being a mechanic, but I would expect it would be difficult to have any mechanic guarantee they did not miss anything, and I believe if a potential buyer came into a shop with this requirement, they would likely be politely dismissed.

I find expecting perfection from any vendor I deal with to be a prescription for disappointment. Yes, I expect them to do their work in a competent, professional manner, but not to be without error.

Maybe I just have low expectations. They say pessimists are never disappointed - only pleasantly surprised. 

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35 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Not being a mechanic, but I would expect it would be difficult to have any mechanic guarantee they did not miss anything, and I believe if a potential buyer came into a shop with this requirement, they would likely be politely dismissed.

I find expecting perfection from any vendor I deal with to be a prescription for disappointment. Yes, I expect them to do their work in a competent, professional manner, but not to be without error.

Maybe I just have low expectations. They say pessimists are never disappointed - only pleasantly surprised. 

I regard the mechanic to be a qualified professional. As such my expectation is he/she be fully engaged and connected to their main paid profession. Therefore I don't find it acceptable to be casually told "...sorry I missed that!..."

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2 minutes ago, PTK said:

I regard a mechanic as a qualified professional fully engaged and connected to his main paid profession. Therefore I don't find it acceptable to be casually told "...sorry I missed that!..."

You must deal with different human beings than I do.  I have never met one that was perfect yet.  In 25 years of flying for the airlines, I never flew a perfect flight.  I wouldn't expect a mechanic to be perfect either.. unless I wanted to pay him accordingly (as in multiple thousands of dollars).

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14 minutes ago, PTK said:

I regard the mechanic to be a qualified professional. As such my expectation is he/she be fully engaged and connected to their main paid profession. Therefore I don't find it acceptable to be casually told "...sorry I missed that!..."

Were a mechanic to dismissively or casually tell me "...sorry I missed that..." it would be disappointing, but I also choose to deal with mechanics who are those types of individuals I believe you describe in the first part of your post - professional, engaged, and qualified. A mechanic who would speak to a customer in the manner you describe and the type of individual you would have working your plane would seem to be incompatible. I would also expect a mechanic doing an annual inspection to be more thorough in their review of a plane than a PPI.

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Were a mechanic to dismissively or casually tell me "...sorry I missed that..." it would be disappointing, but I also choose to deal with mechanics who are those types of individuals I believe you describe in the first part of your post - professional, engaged, and qualified. A mechanic who would speak to a customer in the manner you describe and the type of individual you would have working your plane would seem to be incompatible. I would also expect a mechanic doing an annual inspection to be more thorough in their review of a plane than a PPI.


You need to use dental terms when answering Peter Garmin.

Peter - I think a PPI is like a 6 month dental exam. Everything discovered during the visit is either treated or identified as a watch area. Let’s say you do the x-rays and don’t see anything on them or your visual inspection. Now 2 months later one of your patient’s molars chip and now requires a crown at a minimum. Who should pay for this? You because you should be a soothsayer and predict the impending tooth failure?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I would love to know how to hold a mechanic accountable for his PPI.  I had one done and then had a different mechanic do the annual just 2 weeks later after the purchase was completed (3 hrs flown).  PPI missed loose engine mounts that all needed replaced, bad fuel servo that was missing a nozzle, and the exhaust baffles burned out.  In all, my first annual was $9 AMU's.  I was steamed, but just vowed never to use that mechanic again.  If there is any recourse available, I'd sure like to know about it.

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4 hours ago, PTK said:

Things should not get missed on the PPI. Period. Hold the party performing it accountable. Funds to fix things negotiated away are already accounted for in the negotiated sale price and in the buyer’s bank account. Nothing over and above.

I'm late on the bandwagon, and late to lunch, but work is like that.

I guess that every A&P, and certainly every IA, should have comprehensive lists of every potential trouble spot on every make & model of airplane ever built, and be able to inspect them all in a day or less without making any mistakes. They should each have x-ray vision, too, to see that spar corrosion is starting under the failing tank sealant, as recently happened to someone here. The things you find when taking other things apart sometimes cannot be spotted on an "inspection" that is not also a "disassembly," which requires time and money.

To say nothing of the fact that no two A&Ps will come up with the same list of squawks on the same plane, part of the rationale for using "a different set of eyes" for your plane from time to time.

A Pre-Purchase Inspection is whatever the buyer and his mechanic decide to make it. Annual isnpections have minimum lists, but also vary from IA to IA. "There are absolutely no absolutes!"

Edited by Hank
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5 hours ago, PTK said:

Things should not get missed on the PPI. Period. Hold the party performing it accountable. Funds to fix things negotiated away are already accounted for in the negotiated sale price and in the buyer’s bank account. Nothing over and above.

I am not sure which world this state exists.   I will say that a non broken tail pipe was on the plane during the purchase.   A couple of months later the tail pipe failed $400.00

The starter was working when we bought the plane several months later it failed. $600.00

Now down to $9000.00

You may have a better crystal ball than I do.   The approach that it is a 40 year old machine and shit breaks and you have to fix it to fly is where I live.

 

Edited by Yetti
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38 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'm late on the bandwagon, and late to lunch, but work is like that.

I guess that every A&P, and certainly every IA, should have comprehensive lists of every potential trouble spot on every make & model of airplane ever built, and be able to inspect them all in a day or less without making any mistakes. They should each have x-ray vision, too, to see that spar corrosion is starting under the failing tank sealant, as recently happened to someone here. The things you find when taking other things apart sometimes cannot be spotted on an "inspection" that is not also a "disassembly," which requires time and money.

To say nothing of the fact that no two A&Ps will come up with the same list of squawks on the same plane, part of the rationale for using "a different set of eyes" for your plane from time to time.

A Pre-Purchase Inspection is whatever the buyer and his mechanic decide to make it. Annual isnpections have minimum lists, but also vary from IA to IA. "There are absolutely no absolutes!"

I said nothing about money or how long it takes. All I want is a comprehensive inspection and detailed report on the condition of this airplane.

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I say there are just a short list of shops/mechanics who are qualified to do a PPI on a vintage Mooney. In Texas I wouldn't go to anyone other than JD at SWTA or Don Maxwell. Theoretically any A&P should be able to do a PPI but if it's my money, the list is pretty short.

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7 hours ago, PTK said:

Things should not get missed on the PPI. Period. Hold the party performing it accountable. Funds to fix things negotiated away are already accounted for in the negotiated sale price and in the buyer’s bank account. Nothing over and above.

As a buyer, I think if I approached a sale requiring a mechanic to know everything and the owner to fix everything before the sale, it probably would not be conducive to getting ANY sale done.  I'd see the prebuy as a way to look for game-stopper problems, and get at least some idea of the fixes to be completed, and then renegotiated based on what is found.  If you want something else out of a prebuy, it'd be best to discuss it with the mechanic you hire, e.g. "I want this prebuy to be at the detail of an annual inspection, I want every discrepancy that exists noted, and I will hold you accountable for any missed discrepancies."

As an owner, I certainly would refuse to allow any inspection that required any disassembly of any parts unintended to be disassembled (cowling, inspection plates).  Considering I might need to fly it afterwards, I would not want anything else touched by a mechanic who was not accountable to me.

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4 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

 "I want this prebuy to be at the detail of an annual inspection, I want every discrepancy that exists noted, and I will hold you accountable for any missed discrepancies."

Are you willing to pay for a week of work to accomplish the above?

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