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M20E Fuel Starvation Accident


kortopates

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5 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Getting clearance, taxing. I plan for 10-15 from engine start to run up area. 

-Robert

One of the joys of life in fhe  boonies. My normal taxi for departure is ~1000 feet. Runup takes a minute or two, and I normally pick up my clearance in the air when fraveking IFR (but not always ). If the wind is blowing wrong, my taxi jumps to almost 3000'.  :)

Then again, it's straight out runway heading 10.4nm for fuel, when the FBO is open; otherwise it's ~25nm the other way for similar-priced self serve . . . . And I do miss having a Class D / TRSA just a couple of miles away, that always made the air pick up so simple. 

Edited by Hank
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You should really do this once from each tank just to KNOW your total capacity and unusable fuel. But there's no need to do this on a cross country out over the wilderness somewhere. After coming in from a long flight with one of the tanks as close to empty as you'd let it go, don't refill it, rather take off on the fuller tank, and just stay high above your airport or any airport. Switch to the nearly empty tank and stay there until it runs dry and the engine starts to stumble. Then switch tanks back to the fuller one and go land.

Now you know a few things:

  1. Running a tank dry is a non-event and the engine will restart immediately. (turbos in the flight levels are a bit different but still a non-event)
  2. What your fuel gauge for that tank looks like at the point it will run dry, or how many minutes will go by after the needle has stopped moving before it runs dry.
  3. After landing, fuel that tank to full and note the total gallons of USEABLE fuel. 
  4. For safety reasons, knowing how your plane typically reacts to running out of fuel is good to know. 
And next time you are on a long cross country and flight plan to arrive at your destination or fuel stop with say, 10 gal remaining, you'll be more comfortable with all 10 gal in one tank rather than a "few" gal in one tank and a "few more" in the other tank.

A couple of personal notes:

  1. Never run the tank dry in the pattern at the end of a long cross country. I plan to arrive in the landing pattern already on the tank that I will land with.
  2. If I plan to run a tank dry, I'll do it at my cruising altitude.
  3. Never let the even surprise you. I'm anticipating the engine stumble and have my hand on the fuel selector.
  4. We get the most cross country utility out of our airplanes when we can KNOW exactly how much fuel we have and WHERE it is.

 

Or you could just install CiES senders and always know how much you have.

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I'll agree. One of the best things I did was to go ahead and add the CiES senders when I did the EDM-900. 

I have though, run each of my tanks dry a couple of times just to verify and see how the CiES and the EDM-900 report the event. The gauge on the EDM will X out with about 1.5 gal of useable left.

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Part of my preflight is to not just switch tanks to check the operation of the switch after I sit down, but feel all around it to make sure I haven't had a little pebble off my shoes or something else fall in that could jam it. 

Running a tank dry really is a non-event. 

Maybe because I'm still in my 40's it's easy for me to reach the switch. :D In my transition training I told my CFI I was going to switch tanks and reached down and changed them. A minute or so later he asked when I was going to switch tanks and I told him I already had. 

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3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:
  1. Running a tank dry is a non-event and the engine will restart immediately. (turbos in the flight levels are a bit different but still a non-event)

I take exception to that!  The engine stumbles for 5-10 seconds, but it seems like freaking forever.  And it's NOT a non-event--either the seat cushion gets sucked up or some poo comes out! :D

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2 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I take exception to that!  The engine stumbles for 5-10 seconds, but it seems like freaking forever.  And it's NOT a non-event--either the seat cushion gets sucked up or some poo comes out! :D

Hahahah... very true. Except the engine only stumbles for about 2 seconds... which you're sure is 10 second because it seems like 20 minutes.

But in all seriousness, it's good to do this enough times that you get comfortable with the procedure and it becomes a non-event.

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Couple of data points from my experience flying behind th IO360A1A. At taxi power (say 1200ish rpm) turning the selector to the off position will kill the engine in <10secs (closer to 5secs IIRC). I’ve never turned the selector to the off position in cruise, but I assume the engine would run a few seconds at most.

It doesn’t take a lot of time to restart after running a tank dry, but time seems to pass slowly with the prop windmilling.

As important as it is to ensure the selector is in good working order, also keep an eye on the fasteners and plastic trim around the selector. If one or both of the screws that hold the trim piece in place backs out, it can lock the selector in an undesirable position..

 

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I think this discussion begs the question for us less flexible pilots (and that there is an STC or a mod for almost everything).  For those of us that have the poorly located selector and the homegrown handle to switch tanks (still a PITA) is there a mod to move it to the proper location.  I know the cost is probably more than prohibitive and most people would never do it, however there would be those select few.

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8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'll agree. One of the best things I did was to go ahead and add the CiES senders when I did the EDM-900. 

I have though, run each of my tanks dry a couple of times just to verify and see how the CiES and the EDM-900 report the event. The gauge on the EDM will X out with about 1.5 gal of useable left.

The EDM900 is like 3600$ plus install, how much more for the CiES senders?

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7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Couple of data points from my experience flying behind th IO360A1A. At taxi power (say 1200ish rpm) turning the selector to the off position will kill the engine in <10secs (closer to 5secs IIRC). I’ve never turned the selector to the off position in cruise, but I assume the engine would run a few seconds at most.

It doesn’t take a lot of time to restart after running a tank dry, but time seems to pass slowly with the prop windmilling.

As important as it is to ensure the selector is in good working order, also keep an eye on the fasteners and plastic trim around the selector. If one or both of the screws that hold the trim piece in place backs out, it can lock the selector in an undesirable position..

 

I have and it kills the engine in about 5 seconds. Carbureted engines will run longer, they must empty out the fuel bowl.  this also happens when you hit a bump of turbulence just as you're switching tanks with your PVC pipe tool.  Like you I think its important to see this, and the first time with an instructor to minimize the startle factor next time, and to cement the relight procedure without overspeeding the hell out of the prop (throttle to 1/3rd..relight, then advance throttle to cruise again). 

The hazard of switching tanks on the ground just before takeoff isnt just about shutting the fuel off. It also about possibility of a large air lock from that tank having been previously ran dry, or water contamination that takes a while to get from the tank pickup to the engine.

Edited by jetdriven
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6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I think it was in the neighborhood of $1600 for my 252 which takes four senders.

Airplanes ain't cheap. Neither is the alternative, I'd imagine. How much are factory senders? I may have one bad, and im evaluating. Like you it seems like light is the Insight G2 and all in is the EDM-900.  We also blew up the budget with radios a year ago, and now our FF is dead and the rest is flaky. Just flew over 800 nm of water without a totalizer and with not very accurate fuel gauges.

 

Edited by jetdriven
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4 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I have and it kills the engine in about 5 seconds. this also happens when you hit a bump of turbulence just as you're switching tanks with your PVC pipe tool.  Like you I think its important to see this, and the first time with an instructor to minimize the startle factor next time, and to cement the relight procedure without overspeeding the hell out of the prop (throttle to 1/3rd..relight, then advance throttle to cruise again). 

Yes, this! 

We all know that airplanes don't immediately roll over and dive straight into the ground as soon as the engine quits. But a pilot who panics when the engine quits, or at any time, can lose all ability to remedy the situation. So it's important to recognize what is happening and calmly sort it out and continue on as the non-event that it is. So yes, get out there with a CFI or get high over an airport and run a tank dry or shut the fuel off and see what happens and how long it takes to come back when the proper action is taken. 

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9 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I have and it kills the engine in about 5 seconds. Carbureted engines will run longer, they must empty out the fuel bowl. 

My carbureted O-360 runs less than a minute, at idle, around 800-1000 rpm.  At full power I doubt I would roll 100 feet before the engine quit.

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5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Airplanes ain't cheap. Neither is the alternative, I'd imagine. How much are factory senders? I may have one bad, and im evaluating.

Unless you're thinking of putting that beautiful bird up for sale, just do it. As @Marauder can attest, it's so nice to have accurate fuel information at all times.

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Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Unless you're thinking of putting that beautiful bird up for sale, just do it. As @Marauder can attest, it's so nice to have accurate fuel information at all times.

Funny thing about fuel level. Our problem is compounded somewhat by the 54 gallon total fuel capacity. Which means land with 10 gallons aboard, which means two gauges showing near zero or one showing 40 lbs. You know I picked the latter.

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43 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I have and it kills the engine in about 5 seconds. Carbureted engines will run longer, they must empty out the fuel bowl.  this also happens when you hit a bump of turbulence just as you're switching tanks with your PVC pipe tool.  Like you I think its important to see this, and the first time with an instructor to minimize the startle factor next time, and to cement the relight procedure without overspeeding the hell out of the prop (throttle to 1/3rd..relight, then advance throttle to cruise again). 

The hazard of switching tanks on the ground just before takeoff isnt just about shutting the fuel off. It also about possibility of a large air lock from that tank having been previously ran dry, or water contamination that takes a while to get from the tank pickup to the engine.

I've experienced said airlock in the air after topping off a tank that was run dry on the previous flight.  Upon switching tanks at the top of the climb, the engine quit for several seconds.  I hit the boost pump immediately but I'm not sure it made a difference as it started producing power again quickly . As soon as it fired up again, I realized why it had happened.  If I run a tank dry in flight, it is my SOP on the following flight to start the engine on that tank. I think it is a good idea to verify tank continuity and selector operation before take off.

Edited by Shadrach
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16 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I've experienced said airlock in the air after topping off a tank that was run dry on the previous flight.  Upon switching tanks at the top of the climb, the engine quit for several seconds.  I hit the boost pump immediately but I'm not sure it made a difference as it started producing power again quickly . As soon as it fired up again, I realized why it had happened.  If I run a tank dry in flight, it is my SOP on the following flight to start the engine on that tank. I think it is a good idea to verify tank continuity and selector operation before take off.

I start the engine on the least full tank. Upon completion of the checklist prior to taxi, I will switch to the fullest tank. Taxi, run-up and take off are done on this tank. This ensures I have proper fuel flow from both tanks while on the ground, and prior to needing to get a prescription for flexiril to treat a pulled sphincter muscle

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The EDM900 is like 3600$ plus install, how much more for the CiES senders?

I’m going to be a contrarian.
If you have 1 factory sender gone bad, that’s $350, or replace them all for $1600? I’m in the same boat, I’m going to fix the 1 sender, if I had 3 failing senders, then I would go with CIES.
I also have fuel flow, so my totals are accurate to within 1 gal, plus I have wing mounted gauges. So that’s 3 ways of calculating my fuel levels not counting flight planning estimates.
I’m not going to go up and run a tank empty either, that seems like asking for trouble. I have 64 gallons and most I used is 50, I start looking for fuel when I have used 40. I am not going to open the door for Murphy to enter.
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3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Funny thing about fuel level. Our problem is compounded somewhat by the 54 gallon total fuel capacity. Which means land with 10 gallons aboard, which means two gauges showing near zero or one showing 40 lbs. You know I picked the latter.

When I was burning the fuel down to begin the CiES installation I was intent on getting them down below 5 gallons per side indicated. Since I was periodically getting a fuel mismatch error on the JPI and watching the fuel quantity bounce between 4 and 7 gallons, I didn't want to unexpectedly run a tank dry. I have none of those concerns with the CiES. They are as advertised, very accurate. 

When I had issues with my mechanical senders, I think I was quoted $200 per sender for refurbishing them (included postage). Since I wasn't sure which sender was causing the issue, I was planning on sending in all 4. It came down to $800 for refurbishing 42 year old senders or paying $1500 (Oshkosh sale price) for new ones that claimed better accuracy. It was a good decision because the accuracy is just that much better. I can actually feel comfortable in the 5 gallon per side arena.

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2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I start the engine on the least full tank. Upon completion of the checklist prior to taxi, I will switch to the fullest tank. Taxi, run-up and take off are done on this tank. This ensures I have proper fuel flow from both tanks while on the ground, and prior to needing to get a prescription for flexiril to treat a pulled sphincter muscle

That makes sense. However, if you did that and the most full tank had been run dry during the previous flight then there's a chance that the engine would die of fuel starvation just as you began your taxi.  It can be quite irritating.

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21 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That makes sense. However, if you did that and the most full tank had been run dry during the previous flight then there's a chance that the engine would die of fuel starvation just as you began your taxi.  It can be quite irritating.

and exactly why you would do this, so you dont find out about it on Take off or later.

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Question: for the standard two tank design (75 total) in a M20K are there 4 CEIS senders?  Two per tank?

I had Monroy Long Range tanks in my last 231 with only the factory mechanical senders to analog gauges but had a fuel totalizer.

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