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Looking to purchase a Mooney M20J


Shawn26

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20 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Some of this is arguably accurate, some of it is arguably hogwash.

I submit there is no meaningful difference in airframe age between the vast majority of F and J models.  The very newest J models were made 20 years ago, and most of them are over 30 years old.  That's more than enough time for ham-fisted mechanics to strip nut plates, scofflaw owner to ignore hoses and brake replacements, fuel tanks to leak and not be patched or resealed, etc.  Amongst airplanes that are actually for sale, I'm confident you'll find roughly equal numbers of good and bad specimens of each flavor.

...

None of this is meant to suggest the J isn't a great airplane.  It is, which is why it commands a price premium in the market vs. the F.  But don't kid yourself that the purchase premium is somehow offset by cheaper maintenance costs.  jetdriven is a smart guy and makes lots of good contributions here, but I just can't agree with his opinion on this.  You're not going to save money maintaining a J vs. maintaining an F.

I guess I didn't get from @jetdriven's post that EVERY J requires less maintenance, just that they TEND to simply because they tend to have fewer airframe hours with age.  Based on my M20J search experience, I can verify that there are plenty of J's out there that could be far larger money pits than a well-maintained F model, though.

It's sad that I am thankful to have only a "small" money pit :) 

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As many have said $75k is really a stretch for a nice / well maintained J that won't hit you for $10-20k or more in the 1st 2 years. To give you an idea of my experience and the numbers I had a max budget of $90k when I bought my J seven years ago. It had a 14 year old engine with 1400 SMOH, paint / interior that was 6/10 and I paid $88K.  It was / is a clean airframe, was flown a ton in the 5 years prior to me buying it and by the logs it was maintained to a high standard.  I was prepared to bite the bullet on an new engine if needed but I got lucky and flew the engine to 2100 SMOH with nothing needing replacement.  I did spend the first two years and about $8000 in addition to normal maintenance chasing down bugs and fixing all the little things.  In the last 7 years and almost 1000 hrs flying my J  I have done new paint ($10k), new interior ($5k), factory engine with everything new firewall forward ($36k), two prop overhauls ($5k), new blades ($6k), resealed one tank ($4.5k) plus some avionics and all the normal repairs that come up.  My point, besides making me cry from adding it all up is that the purchase price is really the easy part.  So with your $75k buy a nice C or F and bank the extra money for the next few years for maintenance and improvements.  The other option is to save up and spend $100-110k on a nice J :)

Good luck and use all the experienced people on this forum!! I found my plane through Mooneyspace :)

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2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Depends on the F model but yes they cost more to maintain than a J model. Depending on year they can be up to 10 years older. Older airframes mean more stripped out nut plates, older hoses, brake calipers that corrode, etc. so there’s that. The labor for an oil change is easily an 2 hours instead of one for a J model. It takes about 60-80 screws to de-cowl it enough to change the oil. Removing the whole cowl takes longer. J cowl comes off in about 15 minutes. Then parts obsolescence. Flap pumps are nearly impossible to find or rebuild. Some Internal parts are not being made for those. Same for the master cylinders. Then the 100-hour AD to lubricate every rod end.  J doesnt have that. Some have the prop wirh the AD hub which must either be inspected or replaced.  So the airplane is cheaper to buy but there are extra expenses in owning one. 

Mooney went electric only on flaps and gear in 1969, so you'll need an old F to worry about hydraulic parts. My 1970 C has 6 screws and maybe 3 dozen camlocks to remove the entire cowl; I timed it at annual last month, 3 minutes to remove, 5 to reinstall by myself. And no fiberglass to vibrate and rub holes in the top.

Removing the one piece belly is a chore, 52 screws and an empty box to let it down on and slide out. But it's much easier than the dozens of screws in each of several panels from the original design. Many vintage planes have this upgrade (mine does!  :D ). My plane also has split, folding rear seats which come in very handy.

Pay attention to (in order):  airframe condition; engine condition and time; installed avionics (it costs much more to install them than to buy a plane with them already there); tank status (leaky / tight, resealed vs. bladders); interior; paint. Make a list of what you must have and what you want to have, and strike planes missing the former. See how manymof the latter you can get, and decide if the price delta is worth it. At your price point (higher than mine!), look at some e Fs, too, you won't notice the difference. 

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$75K would land you in F territory.   You should have 10K after purchase to fix things. There is a cost of acquisition is about $2-5K.   If I told how much my annual cost me this year, I would be hated.  I don't think I could afford a plane in CA

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51 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I guess I didn't get from @jetdriven's post that EVERY J requires less maintenance, just that they TEND to simply because they tend to have fewer airframe hours with age.

I can agree with this concept for recent airframes, e.g. comparing an SR22 G5 (0-5 years old) against an SR22 G3 (5-10 years old).  When every specimen is multiple decades old, I don't think it holds water.  After a certain amount of time, condition is independent of calendar age.  To pick an absurd example, shall we also agree the Wright Model E is less expensive to maintain than the Wright Flyer?  After all, the former is 10 years newer! :D

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36 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I can agree with this concept for recent airframes, e.g. comparing an SR22 G5 (0-5 years old) against an SR22 G3 (5-10 years old).  When every specimen is multiple decades old, I don't think it holds water.  After a certain amount of time, condition is independent of calendar age.  To pick an absurd example, shall we also agree the Wright Model E is less expensive to maintain than the Wright Flyer?  After all, the former is 10 years newer! :D

I'd say there are other variables that are significant, too.  For example, the fact that GA activity has decreased over time, with peak GA activity in the 80's, suggests that although a 40 year old airframe is only 25% older than a 30 year old airframe, the wear-and-tear is likely more than 25% different.  It's like that Indiana Jones line -- "It's not the years, it's the mileage."

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I can agree with this concept for recent airframes, e.g. comparing an SR22 G5 (0-5 years old) against an SR22 G3 (5-10 years old).  When every specimen is multiple decades old, I don't think it holds water.  After a certain amount of time, condition is independent of calendar age.  To pick an absurd example, shall we also agree the Wright Model E is less expensive to maintain than the Wright Flyer?  After all, the former is 10 years newer!


You’re right. These plane’s ultimate condition is going to come down to who owned them and their views on upkeep. There are a number of Js I wouldn’t touch at all because it was clear they weren’t maintained. Same goes for some of the older models.


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Yes, everything cost much more in CA. How much is you annual on average on your Mooney J? And at what state you’re located?


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I don’t think high annual cost is unique to California. The MSCs on the east coast have a high base rate as well.

Even after 27 years of ownership, I will still get a high annual on occasion. Usually as a result of being proactive on something rather just waiting for it to break. Or being preventative (like the year I had them paint the rudder hardware and tubes).

I think the MSC I used last year has a $2,600 annual inspection cost - and that doesn’t include the stuff that needs to be fixed.

I would squirrel away $10k for the first year’s unexpected things. And as one member here will tell you, it may not be enough.


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As many have said $75k is really a stretch for a nice / well maintained J that won't hit you for $10-20k or more in the 1st 2 years. To give you an idea of my experience and the numbers I had a max budget of $90k when I bought my J seven years ago. It had a 14 year old engine with 1400 SMOH, paint / interior that was 6/10 and I paid $88K.  It was / is a clean airframe, was flown a ton in the 5 years prior to me buying it and by the logs it was maintained to a high standard.  I was prepared to bite the bullet on an new engine if needed but I got lucky and flew the engine to 2100 SMOH with nothing needing replacement.  I did spend the first two years and about $8000 in addition to normal maintenance chasing down bugs and fixing all the little things.  In the last 7 years and almost 1000 hrs flying my J  I have done new paint ($10k), new interior ($5k), factory engine with everything new firewall forward ($36k), two prop overhauls ($5k), new blades ($6k), resealed one tank ($4.5k) plus some avionics and all the normal repairs that come up.  My point, besides making me cry from adding it all up is that the purchase price is really the easy part.  So with your $75k buy a nice C or F and bank the extra money for the next few years for maintenance and improvements.  The other option is to save up and spend $100-110k on a nice J

I’m following in your footsteps, at 2100hrs and haven’t done the engine yet, 600+ hrs and counting.

I will add, if you plan on upgrading avionics, etc, a J will give you “ a better return on your investment”, since they have a higher value.
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I'd rather remove the side cheeks and top cowl on my '66E than strip a J down for an oil change. Almost all camlocs.

After 6+ years of ownership I can't imagine that my E is more expensive to maintain than a J. Manual gear, hydraulic flaps, one piece belly... and the older Fs would be similar.

I finish the annual today (except for installing @Sabremech's new cowl)... several days of my time and maybe 4 hours of my IA's time. The required ELT battery will be about half the out of pocket cost.

The key is to fix stuff when it needs it.

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Texas

I do owner assist.   I am usually very sore after, sitting around doing keyboard all day is not the same as rolling around on the ground.  It can be 5 days of work.   Mine have all run under one AMU per year for inspection, I usually believe the IA does not charge enough so write the check for more.    There is about 200 to 500 in part getting ready for it.

I would have to guess I spent 7500 when I first bought the plane

3000 for engine work

2000 for Brittian system

1100 for hoses

300 for tires

lots of parts

List from this year

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Edited by Yetti
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So, vintage cowls are great and may actually be better than M20J cowls.  And in another thread vintage Mooney owners are trying to jump over each other in line for @Sabremech's cowl mod.  Not too many J owners looking to mod their cowls.

Many F's have been modded to be as fast as J's.  But you don't want the windshield mod (which may have the biggest speed impact) because you can't reach your avionics.  And in other threads vintage folks complain about having trouble sealing water out of the avionics hatches.

Got it. :blink:

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34 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

So, vintage cowls are great and may actually be better than M20J cowls.  And in another thread vintage Mooney owners are trying to jump over each other in line for @Sabremech's cowl mod.  Not too many J owners looking to mod their cowls.

the M20J has all of the aero improvements of Sabremech's cowl mod, plus more efficient cowl flaps and a much less restrictive airbox. Dont get me wrong, if I had a pre-J I would be at the front of the line for his kit. Just the J cowl was opitmized pretty good from the start.

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There is a fair amount of bashing of the electric gear.   Properly maintained it works fine.   The actuator units are very well built.   I prefer the crank down method of the F over the pull the rope method of the J

Before someone bashes the electric flaps.   They also work fine. Some contact cleaner on the limit switches will usually fix any issue.   Unfortunately there are some mechanics that are great with mechanical stuff, but not that great with lectricity.    One thing to look for is an unmolested wiring under the panel.   if there are a bunch of clip on wire stuff and wire bundles that are ty wrapped vs.  factory cloth tied.   That could be a sign of issues up the road.

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8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

There is a fair amount of bashing of the electric gear.   Properly maintained it works fine.   The actuator units are very well built.   I prefer the crank down method of the F over the pull the rope method of the J

Before someone bashes the electric flaps.   They also work fine. Some contact cleaner on the limit switches will usually fix any issue.   Unfortunately there are some mechanics that are great with mechanical stuff, but not that great with lectricity.    One thing to look for is an unmolested wiring under the panel.   if there are a bunch of clip on wire stuff and wire bundles that are ty wrapped vs.  factory cloth tied.   That could be a sign of issues up the road.

I agree. in 700 something hours I have replaced the B100 rubber coupler twice, and had to lubricate the electric flap limit switches once.  You lubricate the actuator geabox with a syringe and special grease once per year. Other than that, zero maintenance.  That johnson bar has the latch that wears out after a long time, i'd say its a wash. Later models have the no back clutch spring..thats real money there.

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12 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You lubricate the actuator geabox with a syringe and special grease once per year. Other than that, zero maintenance.  That johnson bar has the latch that wears out after a long time, i'd say its a wash. 

Not trying to be argumentative, but it's definitely not a wash.  I've owned both, a 1967 M20C with electric (Dukes) gear and a 1964 M20C with Johnson Bar.  The Johnson bar is less maintenance, both short and long term.  

I disassembled, repaired, and reassembled both landing gear systems.  I agree with you, the electric gear is neither difficult nor significant in terms of maintenance requirements.  But it is more than the Johnson Bar.

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I wasn't actually trying to start a manual vs electric debate.  I was just observing that the F vs J discussion usually includes claims that one should get an F because of the manual gear and at the same time that there are no age/airframe differences because the later F's are almost J's.  If you want manual gear you are looking at 50-year-old airframes.

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18 hours ago, Shawn26 said:

Sound like the J is much better investment than the F and cost less to maintain!


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The F doesnt cost a lot more to maintain if it has been maintained all along. A properly maintained F will cost less to maintain than a J that has been neglected. I owned an F for 14 years and it was very economical. Yea, I had the 3 piece belly that took me 1/2 hour longer to take off and put on, but that was it. No prop ad, no doghouse, and no dual mag worries. A J will be a good 8 to 10 kts faster however, thus the reason they have a higher value and price. I would pick Glenn Tanners, Mauaders, Breda's and a few other F's over a LOT of clapped out 77-78 J's I have seen and been in for the same $$. You wont be in the well maintained J class at 75K buy in, and as others have said, you will quickly have 125K into it. Fiscally, you would be better served to up your budget to 100K if a J is where you want to be (and thats a good place to be)

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1 hour ago, Yetti said:

There is a fair amount of bashing of the electric gear.   Properly maintained it works fine.   The actuator units are very well built.   I prefer the crank down method of the F over the pull the rope method of the J

My J has a crank rather than the lawnmower starter.   Another reason to favor the 77 J.  ;)

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2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

the M20J has all of the aero improvements of Sabremech's cowl mod, plus more efficient cowl flaps and a much less restrictive airbox. Dont get me wrong, if I had a pre-J I would be at the front of the line for his kit. Just the J cowl was opitmized pretty good from the start.

I think based on the most recent Sabremech thread they have addressed the airbox design by using a new inlet. 

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