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Looking to purchase a Mooney M20J


Shawn26

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Hello,

 

I’m a private pilot and I currently own a Piper Warrior II. At this point of my life, i would like upgrade to a faster and more efficient airplane. And I know the M20J is by far a great choice!

 

I’m based in Los Angeles CA and I fly out of Van Nuys Airport KVNY. I never sat on a M20J before. I would like to know if anybody with in the vicinity can offer me few ride for compensation of fuel so I can learn more about the airplane and performance!

 

And if you happen to know anyone trying to sell their Mooney M20J please forward me the details as I’m very interested regardless if you’re in a different states.

 

Thank you all,

Shawn

 

 

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Standby for the folks who will try to convince you to buy a C, E, or F instead...

Hello,
 
I’m a private pilot and I currently own a Piper Warrior II. At this point of my life, i would like upgrade to a faster and more efficient airplane. And I know the M20J is by far a great choice!
 
I’m based in Los Angeles CA and I fly out of Van Nuys Airport KVNY. I never sat on a M20J before. I would like to know if anybody with in the vicinity can offer me few ride for compensation of fuel so I can learn more about the airplane and performance!
 
And if you happen to know anyone trying to sell their Mooney M20J please forward me the details as I’m very interested regardless if you’re in a different states.
 
Thank you all,
Shawn
 
 
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You should buy an F. The panel in my lowly F.

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In all seriousness, find a model that fits your budget and has the capabilities you are looking for. Some of the older models may have been upgraded to higher levels than later models.


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You should buy the model you can afford easily. Don't buy the model you can stretch to buy. The best deal on any vintage Mooney will be the most expensive one. Typically if you buy the cheapest example of a given model, by the end of the first year, you'll find you've spent double what the expensive one would have cost to buy.

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I've got a 77 and love it, although I didn't like the throttle quadrant. It takes up knee room, is less precise, and heavier. I went to great lengths to convert to conventional linear controls, but I believe I'm the only one crazy enough to do that. The earlier ones are generally cheaper, and have great useful loads. They typically have less equipped panels and autopilots. They are less refined aerodynamically, though, but you can mod to your heart's content to upgrade. The overhead fresh air vent is lousy compared to later models. The landing gear actuator doesn't have the expensive spring that needs replacement every now and then. 82+ get the removable back seats that are extremely useful/desirable.

Having said all that, many have been updated, so you really have to compare individual airframes to really compare. The best advice is to buy the absolute best one you can find/afford, while making sure the airframe is sound and has been flying regularly. High airframe hours don't hurt a Mooney so long as it has been maintained. There are tons of threads here to give you more advice if you want to dig a bit.

You won't regret moving into a J! I'm 11 years into mine and keep improving her and don't expect to outgrow her unless I win a lottery. It is the best bang for the buck personal XC bird out there in the certified world.

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They're all old enough now that shopping on condition and equipment will be more important than any build differences.

I have an early 77 and I like it just fine, but I've not spent any time in anything but 77 J models.   I do like the throttle quadrant vs the push-pull controls, but that's just me and it's not that big of a deal in the bigger scheme of things. 

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There is a 81 J for sale at Cable for $70500 I would look at since it’s in your backyard.

The reason it’s cheap is it has 1800+ hours on the engine, so it’s priced as a runout. I think this is preferable, maybe you get lucky and it goes another 500 hours, if not no big deal. Better than buying an mid time engine that you don’t know how the previous owner treated it.

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3 hours ago, Shawn26 said:

I better stick to the J model. Any thoughts on the first year production 1977 vs 1978 and up? Some Folks find the first year less demanding? Does it have to do with the aerodynamic portion or just the way the throttle /mixture is set? Thanks


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I have owned a 78 J with all the aero mods except for the one piece belly for over 7 years and LOVE it!  I chose to go with a older model for the useful load knowing I would upgrade everything.  It now has new paint / interior, engine ect and it would be the perfect plane (was for 7 years) but the wife wants something bigger and I can't argue with that :).  Im in Vegas and would be happy to take you for a ride if you are in town.  Im not ready to sell now but will be in around 6-8 months if that fits your timeframe but in the mean time will be more than happy to help you with any questions you have.  There are usually a lot of hangar queens and a few nice J's on the market at any given time.  What is your budget?

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Thank you so much for your reply.I’m not in a rush to purchase something right away but definitely by end of this year god willing. I want to be at or below 75K

I find the older model especially the 1977 J model has a better useful load than the older ones. I don’t know the specific reason

I usually come to Vegas most of the time, mostly Henderson KHND.

Keep me in the loop about your J.


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My opinion, 75k likely won't get you into a very nice J... You'll have to prioritize items like engine time, cosmetics, panel, etc. Getting a good airframe is of course the highest priority as everything else can fixed with effort and cash later. Just know that a $75K J upgraded over the next couple of years with $50k of improvements will be a $100k plane, not a $125k one. Because of that, the experienced ones here would advise to buy as many updates as you can with the plane because it will be cheaper in the long run.

Of course any Mooney is better than no Mooney! Even a nice pre-J with updates like many here if you can't find a suitable J.

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$75 is the proper budget if shopping for an F.  That will get you a really nice F, or it will get you a tired J. That F will take care of you for many hundreds of flight hours while the J will cost you another $25K to keep flying and likely another $50K to be comfortable.

Sorry... we've seen this happen a few times... I've got a list and you don't want to be on it.

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16 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

$75 is the proper budget if shopping for an F.  That will get you a really nice F, or it will get you a tired J. That F will take care of you for many hundreds of flight hours while the J will cost you another $25K to keep flying and likely another $50K to be comfortable.

Sorry... we've seen this happen a few times... I've got a list and you don't want to be on it.

+1  I looked at 201's for a couple years in the 70-90k range.  I wanted a solid plane, good IFR instruments, WAAS GPS.  Didn't need any glass instruments.  Thought that was reasonable, but never found anything.  I ended up finding my current in the $120k range but with a rebuilt engine.

If you want a solid J, you're probably looking in the 90-110k range.  People here seem to like M20F's as a less expensive alternative, and you can squeeze similar speeds out of it, but since most F's out there are older, the requirement of having a good, conscientious previous owner becomes more and more important.

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Thank you for your knowledge, did you explain to me the difference between the F and the J beside of the aerodynamic. They both are 4 cylinder and produce 200 horse.

Are the maintenance any different? And operation cost? Or it has to do with ADs?

Thank you


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Depends on the F model but yes they cost more to maintain than a J model. Depending on year they can be up to 10 years older. Older airframes mean more stripped out nut plates, older hoses, brake calipers that corrode, etc. so there’s that. The labor for an oil change is easily an 2 hours instead of one for a J model. It takes about 60-80 screws to de-cowl it enough to change the oil. Removing the whole cowl takes longer. J cowl comes off in about 15 minutes. Then parts obsolescence. Flap pumps are nearly impossible to find or rebuild. Some Internal parts are not being made for those. Same for the master cylinders. Then the 100-hour AD to lubricate every rod end.  J doesnt have that. Some have the prop wirh the AD hub which must either be inspected or replaced.  So the airplane is cheaper to buy but there are extra expenses in owning one. 

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7 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Depends on the F model but yes they cost more to maintain than a J model. Depending on year they can be up to 10 years older. Older airframes mean more stripped out nut plates, older hoses, brake calipers that corrode, etc. so there’s that. The labor for an oil change is easily an 2 hours instead of one for a J model. It takes about 60-80 screws to de-cowl it enough to change the oil. Removing the whole cowl takes longer. J cowl comes off in about 15 minutes. Then parts obsolescence. Flap pumps are nearly impossible to find or rebuild. Some Internal parts are not being made for those. Same for the master cylinders. Then the 100-hour AD to lubricate every rod end.  J doesnt have that. Some have the prop wirh the AD hub which must either be inspected or replaced.  So the airplane is cheaper to buy but there are extra expenses in owning one. 

Good lord, I didn't realize the F cowling was such a pain.  I was just griping to my wife about having to take the cowl off for an oil change soon, I guess I just need to shut up :D

I'm not sure if my J is typical, but the only recurring AD's I have are the 100-hour fuel line inspection, the 100-hour ignition key check, and the 100-hour fuel cap o-ring check.  AD compliance cost me exactly $18 last annual.  Yes, I know, that doesn't make up for needing a new prop, but it helps psychologically :)

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19 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Depends on the F model but yes they cost more to maintain than a J model. Depending on year they can be up to 10 years older. Older airframes mean more stripped out nut plates, older hoses, brake calipers that corrode, etc. so there’s that. The labor for an oil change is easily an 2 hours instead of one for a J model. It takes about 60-80 screws to de-cowl it enough to change the oil. Removing the whole cowl takes longer. J cowl comes off in about 15 minutes. Then parts obsolescence. Flap pumps are nearly impossible to find or rebuild. Some Internal parts are not being made for those. Same for the master cylinders. Then the 100-hour AD to lubricate every rod end.  J doesnt have that. Some have the prop wirh the AD hub which must either be inspected or replaced.  So the airplane is cheaper to buy but there are extra expenses in owning one. 

That maybe true on older F's but mine is nothing of the sort.  76 F cowl is easy and quick.

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8 minutes ago, Shawn26 said:

Sound like the J is much better investment than the F and cost less to maintain!


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Look for some other F owners to chime in on what they think of their plane. @Yetti and @1964-M20E are fairly regular contributors who might have some additional insight. Oh, almost forgot @Marauder. Lots of folks lust after his F.

@gsxrpilot is correct - his list contains buyers who apparently got great deals on their planes (like a $75K J) only to end up with what is commonly know as a money pit.

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Can't spelll.
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10 minutes ago, Shawn26 said:

Sound like the J is much better investment than the F and cost less to maintain!


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Well, "investment" is a generous word.  My wife actually encouraged me to "invest" in a plane while building my RV project so that I could afford the engine in 10 years.  I protested, pointing out that I would spend for more additional money in the intervening 10 years than anything I get back when I sell the plane.  In the end, she won :)

Realistically, other than the (argh) new prop and the ADS-B installation, my first couple years of ownership have been (knock wood) pretty reasonable.  Minor squawks on annuals, the only unexpected maintenance was an early mag IRAN, and a broken HSI face (my fault, long story).

That being said, the plane's history is probably more important than how old it is or how many hours, as someone noted before.  Mine had 3 prior owners--

  • A flight club in OH, so I was satisfied it was flown regularly and well maintained.  They also permanently addressed a lot of the recurring AD's
  • A private owner in TX, who updated the plane and kept it in a dry climate.  He also maintained it well (maybe too well), with annuals at Dugosh and the engine rebuild. 
  • All-American who actually bought the plane to resell the year before I bought it

I figured that was about as good a history as I could find in a 30 year old plane.

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47 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Depends on the F model but yes they cost more to maintain than a J model. Depending on year they can be up to 10 years older. Older airframes mean more stripped out nut plates, older hoses, brake calipers that corrode, etc. so there’s that. The labor for an oil change is easily an 2 hours instead of one for a J model. It takes about 60-80 screws to de-cowl it enough to change the oil. Removing the whole cowl takes longer. J cowl comes off in about 15 minutes. Then parts obsolescence. Flap pumps are nearly impossible to find or rebuild. Some Internal parts are not being made for those. Same for the master cylinders. Then the 100-hour AD to lubricate every rod end.  J doesnt have that. Some have the prop wirh the AD hub which must either be inspected or replaced.  So the airplane is cheaper to buy but there are extra expenses in owning one. 

Some of this is arguably accurate, some of it is arguably hogwash.

I submit there is no meaningful difference in airframe age between the vast majority of F and J models.  The very newest J models were made 20 years ago, and most of them are over 30 years old.  That's more than enough time for ham-fisted mechanics to strip nut plates, scofflaw owner to ignore hoses and brake replacements, fuel tanks to leak and not be patched or resealed, etc.  Amongst airplanes that are actually for sale, I'm confident you'll find roughly equal numbers of good and bad specimens of each flavor.

As others have mentioned, the oil change thing is dependent on the specific F model.  It takes approximately 5 minutes to de-cowl later F models for an oil change: about a dozen cam-locs on each cheek panel, 6 screws and a few more cam-locs for the top.  In contrast, some of the structures on all J models are more trouble to deal with than those on any F model.  Recessed inspection panels, sloped windshields with no access to avionics, gap and hinge seals, inner gear doors, etc. are all nice aero mods, but require more effort to work with.  Prop spinner backplates on the J are more fragile, and while there are fewer screws involved, the one-piece belly has its own issues with wear-and-tear, particularly with requiring two people or some sort of jack/prop/assist to remove it without cracking it.

I sure hope J model owners aren't using the lack of an AD to ignore lubricating rod ends.  This is good practice on any airframe and is specifically called out in the J maintenance manual as a 100-hour requirement.

Can't argue with the complaints about flap pumps, but the J isn't immune to the parts-made-of-unobtanium issue either.  No-back clutch spring kits for the J model gear actuator were essentially impossible to find for a number of years.  The "siamese" Magneto on the Lycoming A3B6D engine variant is somewhat unique to the Mooney M20J, and while I don't have any particular safety concerns about flying behind one, I'm not sure it's a good parts bet for the next 20 years vs. more conventional mags.

None of this is meant to suggest the J isn't a great airplane.  It is, which is why it commands a price premium in the market vs. the F.  But don't kid yourself that the purchase premium is somehow offset by cheaper maintenance costs.  jetdriven is a smart guy and makes lots of good contributions here, but I just can't agree with his opinion on this.  You're not going to save money maintaining a J vs. maintaining an F.

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