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Newly Overhauled Engine, No Existing Logs?


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1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

For me it wasn’t a choice. After my engine failure there were not enough pieces left to be considered a core and certainly no parts to contribute to an overhaul. Not many choices when you don’t have a core. Lycoming reman arrived within a couple weeks and I was able to get back in the air and fly home. 

The previous engine had been a factory NEW with 1050 hours sfnew  

-Robert

Ewww... :wacko:

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Also a note of pickiness-

Lets look at i, (2) in Shadrach's post above-

14 hours ago, Shadrach said:

(2) Has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator (i.e., manufacturer’s data), which have been developed and documented by the holder of one of the following:

This means that the engine must use "calibrated" gauges for the initial run in and break in as the manufacturer requires it in the overhaul manual.  So if you use the airplane to do the run in and don't have currently calibrated gauges you can't legally call if an overhaul. It is only "repaired", which is a legal FAA term. 

A further question is- has this FOH engine been run in yet? How was it done? If it hasn't been run in yet , it can't be called an overhaul in the log book,  technically speaking, because that is inclusive in the "overhaul" designation

I have run this past 2 FAA types in the past and both agreed with the above. In fact, not too many years ago an A&P was cited and fined for signing off an "overhaul" and not following the manufacturers break in policy. He just leak checked and then flew the hell out of it. Did not do the run in per the manual.  

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3 hours ago, cliffy said:

 

This means that the engine must use "calibrated" gauges for the initial run in and break in as the manufacturer requires it in the overhaul manual.  So if you use the airplane to do the run in and don't have currently calibrated gauges you can't legally call if an overhaul. It is only "repaired", which is a legal FAA term. 

A further question is- has this FOH engine been run in yet? How was it done? If it hasn't been run in yet , it can't be called an overhaul in the log book,  technically speaking, because that is inclusive in the "overhaul" designation

I have run this past 2 FAA types in the past and both agreed with the above. In fact, not too many years ago an A&P was cited and fined for signing off an "overhaul" and not following the manufacturers break in policy. He just leak checked and then flew the hell out of it. Did not do the run in per the manual.  

First off, I am not disagreeing with Cliff.

What I find odd is that 40 years ago, most maintenance shops were doing field overhauls.  (The shop I worked at 20 years ago still had all the tools but hadn't overhauled an engine in years.)

Those shops didn't have test stands, "club" propellers, and calibrated gauges.  They installed the engine and told the owner to go fly using the manufacturer's break-in procedure (i.e., fly the hell out of it over 75% power at full rich.). 

The regulations didn't change, but the interpretation did.  Odd.

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13 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

First off, I am not disagreeing with Cliff.

What I find odd is that 40 years ago, most maintenance shops were doing field overhauls.  (The shop I worked at 20 years ago still had all the tools but hadn't overhauled an engine in years.)

Those shops didn't have test stands, "club" propellers, and calibrated gauges.  They installed the engine and told the owner to go fly using the manufacturer's break-in procedure (i.e., fly the hell out of it over 75% power at full rich.). 

The regulations didn't change, but the interpretation did.  Odd.

 

3 hours ago, cliffy said:

Also a note of pickiness-

Lets look at i, (2) in Shadrach's post above-

This means that the engine must use "calibrated" gauges for the initial run in and break in as the manufacturer requires it in the overhaul manual.  So if you use the airplane to do the run in and don't have currently calibrated gauges you can't legally call if an overhaul. It is only "repaired", which is a legal FAA term. 

A further question is- has this FOH engine been run in yet? How was it done? If it hasn't been run in yet , it can't be called an overhaul in the log book,  technically speaking, because that is inclusive in the "overhaul" designation

I have run this past 2 FAA types in the past and both agreed with the above. In fact, not too many years ago an A&P was cited and fined for signing off an "overhaul" and not following the manufacturers break in policy. He just leak checked and then flew the hell out of it. Did not do the run in per the manual.  

I was perusing the Lycoming Service Instruction below, and it seems to indicate that a newly overhauled engine does NOT have to be test run on a test stand, and can be test run in the aircraft with a normal propeller.  Does the overhaul manual require the test stand?

And the break-in 50 hours is SUPPOSED to be the responsibility of the owner/pilot, not the mechanic, right?

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Lycoming Reciprocating engine Break-In and Oil Consumption.pdf

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50 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

First off, I am not disagreeing with Cliff.

What I find odd is that 40 years ago, most maintenance shops were doing field overhauls.  (The shop I worked at 20 years ago still had all the tools but hadn't overhauled an engine in years.)

This gets back to my soap box that A&P's should not be made to learn how to overhaul an engine in order to legally be able to change a vacuum pump. The days of overhauling an engine every 300 hours under a shade tree died out in the 1930's. I don't know of any on field general repair facility that still does overhauls. Its an appliance. Send it off, reinstall.

 

-Robert

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8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

First off, I am not disagreeing with Cliff.

What I find odd is that 40 years ago, most maintenance shops were doing field overhauls.  (The shop I worked at 20 years ago still had all the tools but hadn't overhauled an engine in years.)

Those shops didn't have test stands, "club" propellers, and calibrated gauges.  They installed the engine and told the owner to go fly using the manufacturer's break-in procedure (i.e., fly the hell out of it over 75% power at full rich.). 

The regulations didn't change, but the interpretation did.  Odd.

If you ask an "FAA type" (Cliffy's reference), you will likely get an interpretation that tends towards strict adherence to the most oppressive view of the regs and the state's power to interpret and enforce. Not all of them are like this.  I have a very old friend that is currently an ASI/AW for the FAA. He is an IA that actually owned a repair station in a former life.  He performed many field overhauls in his previous life and would likely chuckle at the utter lack of common sense some folks read into regulations of the regs. 

The job of enforcement requires a bit of interpretation on the part of a FAA inspector, but his/her interpretation is far from the last word and it won't necessarily hold up in a hearing or a trial.      

I would ask the aforementioned "FAA types" how a non pilot rated Mechanic is supposed to conduct/supervise a break in?  I don't believe factory OH engines broken in at the factory. Is Lycoming sending out reps to check on the owner's progress during break-in?  

What happens if god forbid some flat lander decides to break in their new engine and 1500MSL LOP?   That's a break-in procedure well outside the manufactures "recommended" procedure but delivers high mean pressures, clean combustion and cool CHTs,  It will establish oil control just as quickly (if not quicker) as a ROP break-in that is conducted at 4500MSL.  If this now fine running collection of newly documented parts was not broken in using recommended procedure does the engine cease to exist?  How much time is on the non OH'd engine if it's been operated this way for 400hrs?  Can one rectify the unofficial OH by running full rich and full power at 4000MSL for some unspecified period of time? 

What's more is that I don't think lycoming does much testing of their engines before delivery, if they did, they'd not deliver new/reman'd engines with intake leaks and clogged injectors.

Edited by Shadrach
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30 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It is run on the stand for about 30 minutes. 1000 RPM warm up, then progressively higher settings then a short cool down. 

I was wondering whether the test stand part was a requirement.  Lycoming's SI suggests it is not, and provides instructions that talk about doing the post-overhaul test run in situ.  They also provide instructions on the test flight following the ground run before putting the engine back in service

 

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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I was wondering whether the test stand part was a requirement.  Lycoming's SI suggests it is not, and provides instructions that talk about doing the post-overhaul test run in situ.  They also provide instructions on the test flight following the ground run before putting the engine back in service

 

Even with the stand run you still have a prescribed ground run from Lycoming.

 

-Robert

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17 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Even with the stand run you still have a prescribed ground run from Lycoming.

 

-Robert

The SI I'm looking at seems to specify the ground operational test be done on EITHER a test stand or installed on the aircraft, not both.

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22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

So then how many “service limit” overhauls have you seen? If memory serves, every FOH I’ve seen has been done to new limits.

When I worked in an Engine Shop, we would always bring the engine back to factory limits, however not being a factory certified shop we had to call ours Overhauled and not Rebuilt.  As far as the number of overhauls an engine will take is how it is operated.

And we had a test box with the calibrated gages for the engine ground runs, most of those where installed in the aircraft with an air deflector on top of the engine and we used a test prop also.  Can't remember ever using the fly break-in method.

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4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Lycoming supplied my engine with a data sheet showing a full page of stats the engine generated on the stand. I can tell it was at least full operating temp.

 

-Robert

I seem to recall that along with the data sheet it arrived with a clogged injector.

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We're going around in circles here guys.

The SI specifically denotes how Lycoming wants the engine "broken in". It has 3 parts A,B, and C.   Setup, Ground run and Flight test.

A, specifically denotes that calibrated gauges are required (whether test cell or in airframe, both are allowed for the ground run) 1 A2.

Section B denotes the Ground Operational Check. The "ground run" (2) if all goes well, will be around 20 minutes duration total.

Then we move to Flight Test, Section C. SO after 20 or so minutes in the test cell or in the airframe its time to fly. 

Both ground run and flight test comprise the "approved" method to return to service an "overhauled" engine. An engine overhaul is minor maintenance (except for planetary reduction gear engines and turbines). Any A&P can legally do a simple engine overhaul but MUST have reference of approved data to refer to and to sign off his work in accordance with, when it is done. If you have another "APPROVED" method to break in an overhauled engine , by any means, use it, but please tell me where you found that approved information.

A&Ps can't do anything that is not spelled out in some sort of "approved data". Nor can an IA sign off anything that doesn't have approved data to substantiate. IAs can't  just wave a magic wand and say something is "airworthy" if they can't find it in some approved data (leading edge dents come to mind).  Does the approved airframe repair manual allow certain dents to be on the wing? All major airplanes (Boeings) have such data. Our light aircraft stuff does not for the most part.  

What has happened in the recent past is the the Feds have violated A&Ps for not following this "break in " procedure (ground run AND flight test). The question was asked "what makes you think you  know more  about how to break in these engines than the manufacturer?

While it is not unknown that this procedure is many times not followed, in today's light one runs the risk of Fed intervention if it isn't followed. 

Likewise, if "calibrated gauges" are not used (either the airplanes gauges are taken out and calibrated or other calibrated gauges are attached to the engine) , legally it doesn't qualify as an overhaul, just a repair, as you can't sign it off as an overhaul  per Lycomings procedures.  

It still comes down to what constitutes an "overhaul". That is a legal definition. 

I find it hard to understand why many want to fight what is so clearly called out for to be legal. It makes no sense to me. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, cliffy said:

 

What has happened in the recent past is the the Feds have violated A&Ps for not following this "break in " procedure (ground run AND flight test). 

 

I’ve never heard of this. Have an example? For one thing how does an A&p sign off the engine and airplane for the flight portion of the break-in to later put in the log that the engine is  overhauled? 

the engine I got said from the factory it was overhauled but it hasn’t been bolted to an airplane yet, they didn’t ship it with an overhauled governor or prop, no new hoses were included.  But depending on what you read, without all new hoses and an fresh governor it’s not considered overhauled. But it’s already in the book. 

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10 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Did you receive instructions for break in or was it considered broken in by the factory?

 Documentation with it said  to follow Lycoming’s break-in instructions. It has been run initially on a stand but was not considered broken-in. 

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The log book can be signed off as engine installed per-  and released for break in flight per SI XXXXXX  Its up to the installing mechanic to make sure things are done correctly. He's making the final airworthiness release.

There was a thread on here a few years ago about this IIRC.  A&P whacked for break in procedure. 

Not all engines are rated for T/O power continuously. Many larger Lycs have a 5 min limit hence the caution to reduce power.  Lycoming can't require something that goes against the airframe manufactures policy. The Feds always defer to the manufacture on how to do things.

Never have been with the Feds but I've been doing this stuff for over 55 years. I had a mentor who knew a whole lot more than me and he pushed me that way. 

It comes down to the bottom line- what happens if there is an incident? If you have never witnessed a full blown FAA investigation and violation process you have no idea to what detail they go to. I've never been violated, no LOIs, no nothing but I have seen many who have been wrapped up in FAA legal issues. It ain't  pretty sight. 

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1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Interesting that the official manufactures break-in instructions says to reduce power after takeoff per POH and to lean the mixture, also per the POH. My engine shop included instructions to fly wide open and mixture full rich.

That’s just Lycomings way of saying not to exceed the limitations set by the airframe manufacture. Some setups have limitations for how long you can use full boost etc.

-Robert 

Edited by RobertGary1
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1 hour ago, cliffy said:

The log book can be signed off as engine installed per-  and released for break in flight per SI XXXXXX  Its up to the installing mechanic to make sure things are done correctly. He's making the final airworthiness release.

There was a thread on here a few years ago about this IIRC.  A&P whacked for break in procedure. 

Not trying to be confrontational but how do i as an A&P sign off an engine as overhauled and airworthy when the definition of overhaul depends on a 2 hour flight and the airworthiness of said engine is limited to that two hour flight?

it just seems after it’s bolted onto the airplane and it’s ran 5 minutes to check proper operation and for leaks it’s airworthy and signed off as such.  Or it’s not and needs more work first. 

Edited by jetdriven
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The log book can be signed off as engine installed per-  and released for break in flight per SI XXXXXX

No different than an after maintenance flight check. 

Once the break in flight(s) are done and its leak checked and oil consumption is checked per the SI then I would sign it off as "break in" of overhauled engine complete per Lyc SI XXXX. Released as airworthy for continued service. 

There was a thread on here a few years ago about this IIRC.  A&P whacked for break in procedure. 

Not all engines are rated for T/O power continuously. Many larger Lycs have a 5 min limit hence the caution to reduce power.  

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