0TreeLemur Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Hi everyone, the Feb. 2018 MAPA Log magazine contains a reprint of an older "Ask Jerry" article that mentions SB M20-088. That Service Bulletin is a modification to allow the baggage door to be opened from inside the cabin as a safety feature. I did a more than cursory search and can't find SB M20-088. The Mooney www site doesn't list it. I'd like to see it. Does anyone have a pdf? Thanks -Fred_2O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Just an idea... I believe it is a kit of parts. Check with Lasar to see what is entailed... Small dollar, emergency exit. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 59 minutes ago, Fred_2O said: Hi everyone, the Feb. 2018 MAPA Log magazine contains a reprint of an older "Ask Jerry" article that mentions SB M20-088. That Service Bulletin is a modification to allow the baggage door to be opened from inside the cabin as a safety feature. I did a more than cursory search and can't find SB M20-088. The Mooney www site doesn't list it. I'd like to see it. Does anyone have a pdf? Thanks -Fred_2O http://www.mooney.com/en/si/M20-82.pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 I thought I remembered a SB or AD several years ago that required that the baggage door be locked before flight and if that is fact can the baggage door be opened from the inside if needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, buddy said: I thought I remembered a SB or AD several years ago that required that the baggage door be locked before flight and if that is fact can the baggage door be opened from the inside if needed? That's the one above. Mooneys made after that were built with the rear door being able to be used as an emergency exit even if it is was locked from the outisde. For your Ovation, page 3-15 of the POH tells how to exit through the rear door. However the POH on the M20R says that the baggage door can be locked. I don't see any requirement for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 @Fred_2O That SB only applies to much later model M20Js and on, our older models have a different baggage door latch mechanism. By your Reg.#, I'm betting you have an early 1967 M20C (I used to own N2997L). There is still something for folks like us to do, and I'm currently doing this mod on my 1964 M20C. This article was from the MAPA log January, 2012. The one thing about this is for it to work, you must leave the baggage door unlocked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Next thought how many of us actually lock the luggage door religiously. What is the procedure for opening the door from the inside, you may not have time or the thought process in the advent of an emergency. I've always been lear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 On 2/20/2018 at 12:33 PM, Danb said: Next thought how many of us actually lock the luggage door religiously. What is the procedure for opening the door from the inside, you may not have time or the thought process in the advent of an emergency. I've always been lear On the M20M here's what the procedure is: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, Danb said: Next thought how many of us actually lock the luggage door religiously. What is the procedure for opening the door from the inside, you may not have time or the thought process in the advent of an emergency. I've always been lear I believe the later model Mooneys don't matter if the baggage door is locked or not. Perhaps someone can provide the answer to that? For the mod I posted for the pre-201s, the baggage door must be unlocked for it to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Danb said: Next thought how many of us actually lock the luggage door religiously. What is the procedure for opening the door from the inside, you may not have time or the thought process in the advent of an emergency. I've always been lear I do lock the baggage door religiously. The previous owner had the baggage door depart in flight, and repaired at LASAR. Part of my pre-flight flow now. The modified door handle just has a plastic cover that you rip off, then a safety pin you pull like a fire extinguisher. I've tested it out, and it works fine, although you can't shut it again from the inside. Not sure if that was intentional or just a bad fit, but that's okay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted February 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 @Andy95W Spot on- let us know how it turns out. Write a HOWTO? It seems odd to me that there is no way to open it from the inside on the 20C. If the one entry door gets jammed for any reason, why not have a second egress that doesn't require breaking something. As if that would be possible in such a small space anyway. I would like to add that feature to 2903L at some point. It just seems like a no-brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 I don’t lock my baggage door... 1) If that is the only way rescue is going to get me out, I don’t want the locked door to slow them down... What is the risk of not locking the door.... like everything Mooney has built, there is some form of an over center, mechanism that holds the latch closed. You can feel it in the mechanism... You can probably make an adjustment on this. It is probably covered in the MM. If the door seal is old or has been changed, an adjustment can probably be made.... The new Mooneys definitely have an updated version compared to the older ones. They include the directions on how to open, placarded... on the inside. Give it a good look before you need it. Get the old one updated. Or have one of those acrylic busting hammers... going out a window might be quicker or easier or a better route... Our acrylic windows break relatively easy compared to other plastic materials... PP thoughts only, could have aged memory challenges included in them... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 hours ago, carusoam said: Or have one of those acrylic busting hammers... going out a window might be quicker or easier or a better route... Our acrylic windows break relatively easy compared to other plastic materials... Does anyone know if those emergency hammers work on acrylic windows? Acrylic is pretty tough stuff, and not brittle like glass (especially the tempered glass used in car side windows). I suppose if you hit it hard enough, yes, but I can imagine half the time the hammer might bounce back and knock you out. That would be an ignominious end after surviving a forced landing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 I always lock my baggage door before flight. There have been too many unlocked doors popping open in flight. If the door departs in flight it could do real damage to the tail and rudder. It’s happened, but to my knowledge without totally disabling an aircraft - yet. After a couple of departing doors at MAPA PPP’s a policy was instituted that we won’t fly with you if you don’t lock it. Haven’t had any more incidents since.In our low wing Mooney it’s very unlikely that we’ll have a problem egressing from the cabin door with the wing to protect the immediate area; assuming landing right side up. But if need be, I have the emergency exit out the baggage door. But I surely doubt first responders would be trying to use the baggage door. If you come down near civilization, it’s more likely you’ll see your roof cut right off to pull you out if your incapacitated and not on fire.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, kortopates said: In our low wing Mooney it’s very unlikely that we’ll have a problem egressing from the cabin door with the wing to protect the immediate area; assuming landing right side up. But if need be, I have the emergency exit out the baggage door. But I surely doubt first responders would be trying to use the baggage door. If you come down near civilization, it’s more likely you’ll see your roof cut right off to pull you out if your incapacitated and not on fire. Yes, the Fire Dept will cut off your roof. But they will not be the first people on the scene, and those people can often provide help first. Especially in the event of fire . . . . I am also religious about locking my baggage door, just after throwing the canopy cover bag inside and covering up. When I fly, it's unlocked but securely latched right after putting the tow bar inside. Edited February 21, 2018 by Hank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 The chances are if you go down in such a fashion that the main door is jammed closed, you are probably unconscious or physically unable to get to the baggage area. In your emergency training and on your emergency checklist add "open the door" if you are going to land anywhere but an airport. This does a couple of things. 1) keeps the door from jamming (obvious) and 2) tells the first responders where to go to pull you out. Most will not be familiar with ingress and egress of a Mooney. This one simple thing is probably why I am here today to write this. Bobby knew right away where to go to get me out of a burning plane. Over the last 20 years, I have heard of a number of Mooney baggage doors "pop open" in flight to the expensive tune of repair. Personally, I teach "if the baggage door is unlocked, leave it up, and if it is down, always lock it" Sometimes this causes me to unlock and lock it a few times before flight, but so be, I know I wont pop open like what has happened at the PPP to cause them to develop a no fly policy if not locked. Its your plane, you can do what you want of course, but consider mitigating the problem (door jamming closed) with a solution more in line with the cause (open door to prevent jamming). Now if your door handle falls off while you are sitting on a ramp in Gladewater Tx, thats a different problem with a different solution, right Kelly? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 hours ago, mike_elliott said: The chances are if you go down in such a fashion that the main door is jammed closed, you are probably unconscious or physically unable to get to the baggage area. In your emergency training and on your emergency checklist add "open the door" if you are going to land anywhere but an airport. This does a couple of things. 1) keeps the door from jamming (obvious) and 2) tells the first responders where to go to pull you out. Most will not be familiar with ingress and egress of a Mooney. This one simple thing is probably why I am here today to write this. Bobby knew right away where to go to get me out of a burning plane. Over the last 20 years, I have heard of a number of Mooney baggage doors "pop open" in flight to the expensive tune of repair. Personally, I teach "if the baggage door is unlocked, leave it up, and if it is down, always lock it" Sometimes this causes me to unlock and lock it a few times before flight, but so be, I know I wont pop open like what has happened at the PPP to cause them to develop a no fly policy if not locked. Its your plane, you can do what you want of course, but consider mitigating the problem (door jamming closed) with a solution more in line with the cause (open door to prevent jamming). Now if your door handle falls off while you are sitting on a ramp in Gladewater Tx, thats a different problem with a different solution, right Kelly? Exactly right and these points can't be emphasized enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 hours ago, jaylw314 said: Does anyone know if those emergency hammers work on acrylic windows? Acrylic is pretty tough stuff, and not brittle like glass (especially the tempered glass used in car side windows). I suppose if you hit it hard enough, yes, but I can imagine half the time the hammer might bounce back and knock you out. That would be an ignominious end after surviving a forced landing... Yes and no. Our windows will crack if hit hard with a sharp object. But they don't shatter like glass. You have to keep hitting and breaking out pieces. I think (but do not know for sure) that it may be faster to get out the baggage door faster than breaking out a window. I have broken a window out, but I have not undone the baggage door latch from the inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 5 hours ago, mike_elliott said: The chances are if you go down in such a fashion that the main door is jammed closed, you are probably unconscious or physically unable to get to the baggage area. In your emergency training and on your emergency checklist add "open the door" if you are going to land anywhere but an airport. This does a couple of things. 1) keeps the door from jamming (obvious) and 2) tells the first responders where to go to pull you out. Most will not be familiar with ingress and egress of a Mooney. This one simple thing is probably why I am here today to write this. Bobby knew right away where to go to get me out of a burning plane. Over the last 20 years, I have heard of a number of Mooney baggage doors "pop open" in flight to the expensive tune of repair. Personally, I teach "if the baggage door is unlocked, leave it up, and if it is down, always lock it" Sometimes this causes me to unlock and lock it a few times before flight, but so be, I know I wont pop open like what has happened at the PPP to cause them to develop a no fly policy if not locked. Its your plane, you can do what you want of course, but consider mitigating the problem (door jamming closed) with a solution more in line with the cause (open door to prevent jamming). Now if your door handle falls off while you are sitting on a ramp in Gladewater Tx, thats a different problem with a different solution, right Kelly? Open door if landing anywhere other than on a runway with all wheels down. One other "baggage door popping open" mitigation strategy that I've heard is to leave the key in the door until you close it, then you can't take off with it unlatched. I'm in the "leave it open" camp, but because I haven't done this modification yet, I fly with it latched and unlocked. I adopted this after an interrupted preflight led me to take off with it closed but unlatched . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 hour ago, DonMuncy said: Yes and no. Our windows will crack if hit hard with a sharp object. But they don't shatter like glass. You have to keep hitting and breaking out pieces. I think (but do not know for sure) that it may be faster to get out the baggage door faster than breaking out a window. I have broken a window out, but I have not undone the baggage door latch from the inside. I suspected as much. Does anyone know how hard it is to kick out the side windows or windshield? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: I suspected as much. Does anyone know how hard it is to kick out the side windows or windshield? I wouldn't count on it, especially if you're weak or injured. Since emergencies are pretty unpredictable and crash results less so, relying on a single means of egress (i.e., the cabin door) limits one's chances of ultimate survival. Being able to open the baggage hatch from inside certainly helps, and being able to get out a window helps, too. I don't know of anything light and easy to use that will break out a window, though. If there is such a thing I'd be keen to carry it. My J is early enough in the serial numbers that it does not have the inside latch on the baggage door. It's something that I want to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, EricJ said: I wouldn't count on it, especially if you're weak or injured. Since emergencies are pretty unpredictable and crash results less so, relying on a single means of egress (i.e., the cabin door) limits one's chances of ultimate survival. Being able to open the baggage hatch from inside certainly helps, and being able to get out a window helps, too. I don't know of anything light and easy to use that will break out a window, though. If there is such a thing I'd be keen to carry it. My J is early enough in the serial numbers that it does not have the inside latch on the baggage door. It's something that I want to add. Heck, I remember a plane crash horror story where an airliner crashed, and the crew had to egress out the windows. They had a windows axe specifically for this, but it was impossible to get leverage inside, so they passed it to a rescuer outside but it ended up breaking. IIRC one crew member was able to make it out the window, but they couldn't rescue the other crew in time. Granted, those windows are rated for bird-strikes, so I'm guessing someone with an ax or hammer could get into a Mooney from the outside pretty quick, but trying to use one in the cabin would seem impossible... AAAANNNNDDD, that's my happy thought for today... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 If you ever tried to drill a piece of acrylic or install a window... chances are you will learn about stress and crack propagation within a few minutes... Our windows are made out of acrylic, not a very impact resistant material... it is not polycarbonate... Sportys sells a hammer that also has a seatbelt cutter... Avoid hitting birds in flight. Especially the ones near the windshield... their parts will be found strewn around the cabin. http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/life-hammer.html You can test your hammer’s skills on acrylic sheet found in the aviation department of HD.... Some MSers have gone with an extra thick windshields. Better for holding the birds out... PP thoughts only.... thanks to Mike for always sharing his experience... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, carusoam said: If you ever tried to drill a piece of acrylic or install a window... chances are you will learn about stress and crack propagation within a few minutes... Our windows are made out of acrylic, not a very impact resistant material... it is not polycarbonate... Sportys sells a hammer that also has a seatbelt cutter... Avoid hitting birds in flight. Especially the ones near the windshield... their parts will be found strewn around the cabin. http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/life-hammer.html You can test your hammer’s skills on acrylic sheet found in the aviation department of HD.... Some MSers have gone with an extra thick windshields. Better for holding the birds out... PP thoughts only.... thanks to Mike for always sharing his experience... Best regards, -a- Yeah, my experience with acrylic is based on aquarium building. I had a scrap piece of 1/8" acrylic that I wanted to break in half to fit in the trash, so I hit it with a hammer. It did crack, but the hammer bounced back and nearly took my head off. I guess I was expecting it to give way and it didn't. That's the thing about acrylic--even though it cracks easily, the crack does not self-propagate like glass, nor does it automatically fail if it cracks. I suppose they knew what they were doing when they used it as windows in WWII... TL;DR--Always wear safety glasses Edited February 21, 2018 by jaylw314 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 2/20/2018 at 1:05 PM, Andy95W said: @Fred_2O That SB only applies to much later model M20Js and on, our older models have a different baggage door latch mechanism. By your Reg.#, I'm betting you have an early 1967 M20C (I used to own N2997L). There is still something for folks like us to do, and I'm currently doing this mod on my 1964 M20C. This article was from the MAPA log January, 2012. The one thing about this is for it to work, you must leave the baggage door unlocked Thanks!! Looks like a really nice hangar elf project for someone even with my modest mechanical ability. I adjusted the pic to make it readable out of my cheap B&W printer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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