Icing event.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, golfpilot said:

 

Airline flights are one of the most safe ways to travel. That’s my point. Just because you can put a check next to a faa saftey acronym, doesn’t mean it isn’t safe


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Yup - statistically airline travel is safer, per mile of exposure, than walking.

[gsxrpilot]

An internet forum like this one is really one long extended conversation. During the course of this conversation, sometimes some of us get a bit worked up and fly off the handle. Also there are those who come and go in the conversation and those who stay around. Those who have stayed around and become part of the long and ongoing conversation build trust. Not because we take everything they say as the gospel truth, but because there is a certain tenure that goes with becoming a trusted member of the community. Under each avatar is a +number. That number is basically a ranking of trust and standing within the community. 

It would be wise to take that into consideration before starting a flame war. Internet posts are very easy to misunderstand. It's very difficult to catch subtle and context in written posts. This is all the more reason for caution and civility as to not look foolish by misunderstanding intent, meaning, or even the words themselves.

Those who choose to disregard, are typically first ignored, then blocked, and then they fade away to bother other people in other places.

Think, read, edit, and consider before posting to avoid embarrassment. 

[jetdriven]

It’s funny I’ve been ridiculed for so many posts. 

I’ve only gotten icing a few times in many hours but twice it stands out. Once I was flying a 402C from North Platte,  NE to Denver.  I was droning along in the clouds for about a half hour when I heard a static sound like flying in rain. I looked outside wirh a flashlight and alarmingly, I picked up 3” of ice in about 3-5 minutes. I was close to Denver and getting vectored for the approach so I stayed with it. As I started down the approach it was icing up further and the boots weren’t helping at all. The heated windshield on HI was icing over to. Gear came down and prettt soon it took all 650 HP from those twin TSIO-520VB’s just to maintain glideslope wirh flaps up and gear down.  Thankfully I broke out at 200’ and landed. When I eased the power off at 10’ the airplane stalled at 100KT. 

Later I was a Ca in a Beech 1900D. A legendary plane for climb and ice. Same situation, vectored for an approach in Kingmam, AZ the ice appeared in the tips of the clouds. Only this time it was mixed and rime ice and it was 2-3” a minute.  Now a 2700HP airplane should handle it just fine and it is, but it was losing 30kt in the 30sec it took to manually inflate all the boots. Since then I don’t get anywhere near clouds near 32 degrees in a non deiced airplane. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by jetdriven

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It’s funny I’ve been ridiculed for so many posts. 

But you're still here with a likability/trust score of +2812 and a very well respected member of this community. And while we never agree with anyone 100%, your insight and opinion is obviously valuable and very much appreciated around here.

 

[Rick Junkin]

28 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

An internet forum like this one is really one long extended conversation. During the course of this conversation, sometimes some of us get a bit worked up and fly off the handle. Also there are those who come and go in the conversation and those who stay around. Those who have stayed around and become part of the long and ongoing conversation build trust. Not because we take everything they say as the gospel truth, but because there is a certain tenure that goes with becoming a trusted member of the community. Under each avatar is a +number. That number is basically a ranking of trust and standing within the community. 

It would be wise to take that into consideration before starting a flame war. Internet posts are very easy to misunderstand. It's very difficult to catch subtle and context in written posts. This is all the more reason for caution and civility as to not look foolish by misunderstanding intent, meaning, or even the words themselves.

Those who choose to disregard, are typically first ignored, then blocked, and then they fade away to bother other people in other places.

Think, read, edit, and consider before posting to avoid embarrassment. 

One of the most sane posts I've seen to date. Thanks Paul.

Cheers,
Rick

[65MooneyPilot]

This thread on icing has been quite passionate. A story about flying in icing conditions and what happened. It was great that it worked out for you and you made  it on the ground safely. I am sure a lot of us have stories like it, I do.

I am also new to the Mooney forum. I started out a small single engine Pilot and have worked my way up the ladder to ATP flying all Boeing airplanes. I have been flying since I was 17 and now have 45 years in aviation. I don’t claim to know it all, in fact this website is a great example of crew resource management. But I do take issue with low post numbers for credibility.

There is no argument that flying in icing with no anti ice or deice is a dangerous situation. I recall a few years ago, on the east coast, a single engine turboprop stalled in icing conditions and could not recover from over 10,000 feet. If you are an instrument rated pilot you will eventually encounter ice. Early detection is critical. At night even in the Boeing I have my flashlight out and check the windshield wipers all the time when in icing conditions exist. Anytime icing conditions exist engine anti-ice is on. 

Getting back to the original story, every icing encounter is different and as you fly through the precipitation the density varies along with temperature. One ice encounter you may make it through and say I won’t do that again or you may become another accident we will hear about with a tragic outcome. 

Be careful and always have a plan B and C for “just in case”when in the clouds, just as you would for mechanical failure. 

Fly safe, Kevin

[Marauder]

This thread on icing has been quite passionate. A story about flying in icing conditions and what happened. It was great that it worked out for you and you made  it on the ground safely. I am sure a lot of us have stories like it, I do.
I am also new to the Mooney forum. I started out a small single engine Pilot and have worked my way up the ladder to ATP flying all Boeing airplanes. I have been flying since I was 17 and now have 45 years in aviation. I don’t claim to know it all, in fact this website is a great example of crew resource management. But I do take issue with low post numbers for credibility.
There is no argument that flying in icing with no anti ice or deice is a dangerous situation. I recall a few years ago, on the east coast, a single engine turboprop stalled in icing conditions and could not recover from over 10,000 feet. If you are an instrument rated pilot you will eventually encounter ice. Early detection is critical. At night even in the Boeing I have my flashlight out and check the windshield wipers all the time when in icing conditions exist. Anytime icing conditions exist engine anti-ice is on. 
Getting back to the original story, every icing encounter is different and as you fly through the precipitation the density varies along with temperature. One ice encounter you may make it through and say I won’t do that again or you may become another accident we will hear about with a tragic outcome. 
Be careful and always have a plan B and C for “just in case”when in the clouds, just as you would for mechanical failure. 
Fly safe, Kevin

The accident you mentioned was a TBM that crashed on Route 287 in New Jersey after an icing encounter. Pretty sobering when you read the accident report.

I spent a part of my flying time in western NY. Icing was always a concern in the winter and led to a healthy respect. You learned that trucking along on in a cloud, in the winter, in western NY wasn’t a smart thing. The smart thing was to develop rules to fly by and to adhere to them.


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[Marauder]

An internet forum like this one is really one long extended conversation. During the course of this conversation, sometimes some of us get a bit worked up and fly off the handle. Also there are those who come and go in the conversation and those who stay around. Those who have stayed around and become part of the long and ongoing conversation build trust. Not because we take everything they say as the gospel truth, but because there is a certain tenure that goes with becoming a trusted member of the community. Under each avatar is a +number. That number is basically a ranking of trust and standing within the community. 
It would be wise to take that into consideration before starting a flame war. Internet posts are very easy to misunderstand. It's very difficult to catch subtle and context in written posts. This is all the more reason for caution and civility as to not look foolish by misunderstanding intent, meaning, or even the words themselves.
Those who choose to disregard, are typically first ignored, then blocked, and then they fade away to bother other people in other places.
Think, read, edit, and consider before posting to avoid embarrassment. 

Does this mean you love me or just my girls?

The internet can be a great source of truth or provides the greatest lies. It does come down to the source of the information and the history of the poster (imposter). As well, written word often loses a lot in translation. There is no body language or other signs of intent to read. At least that is the explanation I am giving myself when I read Peter Garmin’s posts. Surely he jests...


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[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

Does this mean you love me or just my girls?

The internet can be a great source of truth or provides the greatest lies. It does come down to the source of the information and the history of the poster (imposter). As well, written word often loses a lot in translation. There is no body language or other signs of intent to read. At least that is the explanation I am giving myself when I read Peter Garmin’s posts. Surely he jests...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Nice post for your 13000th post!

[aviatoreb]

I just noticed that number of post counter - and I thought dang I’m here too much but wow some of you guys triple me!  Here’s to old timers!

[Greg Ellis]

20 hours ago, mooneygirl said:

I am glad to read this initial post. I have to say that as a new  IFR pilot in an E model, icing is probably my biggest fear. The DPE I tested with said 10C/-10C is his rule and that I should plan on being 4000 feet below the freezing level.  That would mean I would not really be able to take off in some instances.

I am wondering what the best resource is for icing information/forecast.  I use Foreflight and NOAA. 

It was interesting to learn about the tail icing.  Thanks for all comments that are nice!  XXOO

I use the CIP and FIP on aviationweather.gov when planning a flight. I think this maybe what you mean when you say NOAA.  (the site seems to be down right now)

There are very good subscription type talks on icing to help teach you about it, when it occurs, how it occurs, etc.  I personally have used workshops on avwxworkshops.com  Scott Dennstaedt is a meteorologist and a CFI that does some really nice weather workshops.  I also subscribe to pilotworkshops.com and they have some nice workshops on weather as well.

[Marauder]

16 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Nice post for your 13000th post!

Wow! That many? How time flies. I need to get a life instead of hanging out with the rest of you neanderthals. There is plenty of time to do that in the nursing home.

[N201MKTurbo]

Thanks for all your support guys.

I was just trying to share some of my experience's with ice on Mooney's. I'm sorry some thought that I was encouraging people to fly in icing conditions, I'm not. But if you fly IFR in your Mooney you will at some point get ice on your plane and have to deal with it in flight. Sometimes it has to be an emergency response and some times it doesn't. It would be good to talk about this so the new IFR pilots have a better idea what to do. 

[aviatoreb]

43 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Wow! That many? How time flies. I need to get a life instead of hanging out with the rest of you neanderthals. There is plenty of time to do that in the nursing home.

YEAH GOOD BUDDY - you more than triple my number of posts.  We need to stage an intervention.

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

YEAH GOOD BUDDY - you more than triple my number of posts.  We need to stage an intervention.

I blame it on Tapatalk. Makes it way too easy to keep up with stuff and respond. Damn you Tapatalk. Give me my life back!

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Thanks for all your support guys.

I was just trying to share some of my experience's with ice on Mooney's. I'm sorry some thought that I was encouraging people to fly in icing conditions, I'm not. But if you fly IFR in your Mooney you will at some point get ice on your plane and have to deal with it in flight. Sometimes it has to be an emergency response and some times it doesn't. It would be good to talk about this so the new IFR pilots have a better idea what to do. 

I find most of your posts quite useful whether we agree or not.   I appreciate you relaying  hard won experiences.  I did not sense that you were advocating conducting Non FIKI aircraft operations in ice as a matter of SOP.    I think that fear is an overrated motivator.  While it heightens senses, releases adrenalin and increases heart rate, it does little to improve one’s ability to handle the challenges of managing a stressful situation in the cockpit.  Fear that has degraded to panic can reduce a formerly well-functioning pilot to an indecisive mass that acts as if they’ve had no training. 

I have always disliked the “178 Seconds to live”  CASA campaign and all of it’s offshoots.  Telling VFR pilots that if they enter IMC they will depart controlled flight in less than three minutes on average might motivate them to steer clear of IMC, but it’s not helpful if it happens to one inadvertently and may lead to panic (and  the performance degradation that comes with it) when calm assessment and decisive action would save the day.

Ice in a non-fiki bird is not to be taken lightly, but the OP ended up encountering ice in the descent when there was no forecast of icing.  Having just passed some large rocks prior to descent, it seems his only real option was to continue the descent and approach.  In that situation, I would much prefer to know that the bird I’m flying will carry a reasonable load of ice before becoming a stone than wondering if I’m on the edge of a stall with a light layer of rime.  I would not be comfortable with ice out to stall strips and your post makes me no more likely to fly in icing conditions.  However, knowing the airframe will carry ice would likely provide some measure of comfort (an antidote to panic) in an inadvertent icing situation because it’s good to know the airplanes abilities exceed the comfort level of the pilot by a large margin.  When that situation reverses or is an unknown, bad things can happen quickly.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Shadrach

[bradp]

@mooneygirl I might edit your temp margins a bit.  At least bring the negative down to -20C or so.  A lot depends on the airmass at the time - there's a thread over at beechtalk about an icing encounter up in the flight levels at an OAT (not RAT or TAT) of -43.  Kind of balks at those traditional rules of thumb.  I personally use +5 to freezing as my "warning zone" expect to be able to get out if ice is encountered, and expect it with need for an out if encountered.  But that's just what I use and I find Turbo's and some others' recounts of airframe icing useful information.

So to those who have encountered ice in a non-fiki bird, I hope you don't see it again but thank you for sharing your experiences.  If I ever encounter it inadvertently, despite good planning, at least I have some information rather than no information.  

Other things to think about - when's the last time that alternate air door was checked out / lubricated?  Mine was squeaky as all $hit until I got a little paranoid about actually checking it during annuals.  

[jkhirsch]

15 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Oh how I like to argue with the internet about nothing Paul   By a simple combination of the facts presented here we can create a "like-ability score"

exM20K = 56.88%

Rich = 53.70%

Therefore Rich loses, even though the other guy's post was likely a foolhardy exhibition.

Now if someone would like to enter another variable into evidence I'd be glad to revise the "like-ability scores"

And if someone instructs me on how to impart a negative reputation point I'll take the appropriate course of action as well.

Edited February 20, 2018 by jkhirsch

[bonal]

5 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

Oh how I like to argue with the internet about nothing Paul   By a simple combination of the facts presented here we can create a "like-ability score"

exM20K = 56.88%

Rich = 53.70%

Therefore Rich loses, even though the other guy's post was likely a foolhardy exhibition.

Now if someone would like to enter another variable into evidence I'd be glad to revise the "like-ability scores"

I was wondering when someone was going to point out the percentages

Edited February 20, 2018 by bonal

[Shadrach]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:04 PM, mooneygirl said:

I am glad to read this initial post. I have to say that as a new  IFR pilot in an E model, icing is probably my biggest fear. The DPE I tested with said 10C/-10C is his rule and that I should plan on being 4000 feet below the freezing level.  That would mean I would not really be able to take off in some instances.

I am wondering what the best resource is for icing information/forecast.  I use Foreflight and NOAA. 

It was interesting to learn about the tail icing.  Thanks for all comments that are nice!  XXOO

Learning to read a Skew-T.  The author used to be a regular on the red board (don't know if he still is).   He has a pretty extensive website.  No financial interest.  This is pretty dry stuff, so make sure you're wide awake and have coffee in hand!

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Shadrach

[Danb]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Thanks for all your support guys.

I was just trying to share some of my experience's with ice on Mooney's. I'm sorry some thought that I was encouraging people to fly in icing conditions, I'm not. But if you fly IFR in your Mooney you will at some point get ice on your plane and have to deal with it in flight. Sometimes it has to be an emergency response and some times it doesn't. It would be good to talk about this so the new IFR pilots have a better idea what to do. 

All types of encounters should be used educationally for us all. Experience and relying on others insights are very helpful.

[Marauder]

Learning to read a Skew-T.  The author used to be a regular on the red board (don't know if he still is).   He has a pretty extensive website.  No financial interest.  This is pretty dry stuff, so make sure you're wide awake and have coffee in hand!
 

At one time I thought Scott went to work for ForeFlight. Looks like he is still selling his weather AvWxWorkshop products. His stuff is pretty good.


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[Shadrach]

Just now, Marauder said:

 

At one time I thought Scott went to work for ForeFlight. Looks like he is still selling his weather AvWxWorkshop products. His stuff is pretty good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

I agree.  He did go to ForeFlight but is no longer there and has removed any trace of that from his linkedin profile.

[carusoam]

Did somebody say post counts have an implied meaning?

Mom always said...  quality over quantity...

Did I mention, I have experienced icing, twice...? Once VFR with my work boss on board.  Another time in IMC with my transition trainer on board following an IFR procedure into my home drome....

Discussions like these have helped me stay out of icing... learn about real rates of accumulation... know more about the outs... how to develop a plan B, and C....

I’ve also noticed along the way, no matter what I wrote, it is possible for someone to misinterpret what I was trying to say... (mostly my fault)

Often, I do a final check after I hit the post button... unfortunately, that doesn’t always work...

How Long have we been doing this?  Nine years?

Throw on a touch of forgiveness,  a reality check, and possibly ask if he really meant that...

Then move on...

It is near impossible to keep up on everything posted on MS.

It is better to maintain respect for each other, than to be perfectly right all the time...

It isn’t easy being human.

Now, how do I boost my quality score?   

Best regards,

-a-

 

[aviatoreb]

37 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Did somebody say post counts have an implied meaning?

Mom always said...  quality over quantity...

Did I mention, I have experienced icing, twice...? Once VFR with my work boss on board.  Another time in IMC with my transition trainer on board following an IFR procedure into my home drome....

Discussions like these have helped me stay out of icing... learn about real rates of accumulation... know more about the outs... how to develop a plan B, and C....

I’ve also noticed along the way, no matter what I wrote, it is possible for someone to misinterpret what I was trying to say... (mostly my fault)

Often, I do a final check after I hit the post button... unfortunately, that doesn’t always work...

How Long have we been doing this?  Nine years?

Throw on a touch of forgiveness,  a reality check, and possibly ask if he really meant that...

Then move on...

It is near impossible to keep up on everything posted on MS.

It is better to maintain respect for each other, than to be perfectly right all the time...

It isn’t easy being human.

Now, how do I boost my quality score?   

Best regards,

-a-

 

Well - Anthony, you were the guy I was referring to as triple my quantity score.  Undisputed.

But - quality - your staccato list style, of your very own, always lots of thought and work in your posts.  We will give you the quality prize too!

But if you want to increase your quality over quantity ratio, how about you remove all the vowels.

Edited February 21, 2018 by aviatoreb