Stephen

Used serviceable IO-360-A1A?

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Situation:

 IA just started my first post-purchase annual, and his first task to change oil......and found "significant" metal in the filter. Understanding that....when all is said and done.... an engine rebuild, which this essentially mandates, is going to be $30-40AMU fully burdened with the fees to remove/reinstall engine and deal with norms of component/accessory/hose replacement. That doesn't count dealing with whatever is found in the first annual ...figuring $3-6 K. 

My first three oil changes were clean on filter metal. Engine probably has about 900 hours on a Firewall Forward rebuild in the early 1990's. 

Because fuel instrumentation and voltage failed soon after purchasing the aircraft I put in CIES and and EDM 900.  Due to that and various other maintenance items, I have put in around 12-15K into the aircraft onto which the downpayment of $25K on the note of $67,500 and adding in a rebuild cost, and annual still to be done, the first year out of pocket costs would have me exceeding the cost of the aircraft. I think the only hope I have to salvage the thing from fire-sale/scrap is to find a serviceable engine in the 10-15AMU range ... installed LOL...I don't know if it is possible/advisable because I can't drop that and end up with another junk engine...it is already a financial bloodbath as it is. Basically my other option is to put it up for sale as-is. I like the Mooney but am deeply regretting the day I got it. Any suggestions (suck it up and overhaul is not mathmatically possible). Thoughts? 

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Jesus.

First thing is to double check how much metal your mechanic is talking about.  Everyone does not have the same definition of "significant," and Lycoming does not provide any guidance.  Continental does, though, and Mike Busch's article is well worth a read.

Still, the fact that he found some his oil change and you found none in 3 oil changes this year is worrying :huh:

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Yes, you can find A1A's at junk yards that are not high time. They've been sitting though and usually are set up for other models of planes so some swapping is required. But they do exist.

 

The problem is that when you replace the engine what else will you do? Normally replace all hoses (fuel and oil), that's pushing closer to $1,000 with labor. New mounts of course, you're at least $750, etc. Mags, vac pump, etc, etc. So even if you got an engine for $8K and installed for $2K you'd have some other costs associated with the swap over.

-Robert

Edited by RobertGary1

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thanks guys I appreciate your thoughts. My dream would be to ID an M20 with a compatible engine that has had a totaling due to airframe damage that I could buy the FWF elements in good condition, w/ logs and recently overhauled. It is asking a lot, but  who knows, I could actually use some good luck for a change.  

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Ouch sorry.  I agree with getting into the details of how much metal and its source, along with lycoming's guidance on when to keep flying vs. ground. Since it's the first time showing metal, you may get a reprieve on the next oil change.  And if it's cam and lifter spalling, you are not taking any huge risk by still flying for a bit while you think about what to do.  

Particularly given your location, consider talking to Jewell Aviation, which is pretty close to you in Kennett MO. They list an IO-360 overhaul at 12000 (without accessories and install of course) and are reputable.   @AlexLev has his plane in their shop now getting an overhaul and might provide some guidance.  He had budget constraints and found their pricing so compelling that he flew there all the way from Buffalo NY. Good luck.

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I’m assuming that the 30k to 40k number is assuming most of the internals are scraped.  That number seams a bit high.  With that said, overhauls include more than just the inside if the engine.  They also include overhaul of the fuel injection, other accessories, and often new mags.  You could always opt for an IRAN.  I had a tear down inspection done at Triad in NC for 16.5k.  That basically is a top and bottom overhaul without the accessories.  It included repairing the crankcase, regrinding the cam for rust and replacing the cranckshaft with a servicable unit. I like you had a mid time engine and didn’t want to fork out an extra 15-20k to claim 0 SMOH.  I would suggest that route before replacing with an unknown engine of the same times.  Also, if there trully is a lot of metal, make sure to have anything with metal in it properly flushed.  This includes oil cooler, lines, and prop.

If you do opt for a used engine, check for a prop strike.  Most of the engines available will be from salvaged aircraft and i would say majority of those will have prop strikes.

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I agree with @DXB and @flyntgr1 .  I’d find a good local mechanic to drop the engine and get it iran’d by a good but reasonable shop.  I would think 15k would get you back in the air if you shop around carefully. 

Sorry to hear about this, I’m under 150 hrs since my new to me C. Keeping my fingers crossed not to be shopping for an engine shop in the next few years. 

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Out of curiosity, did your plane sit for a long time before your purchase and frequent use?

Are you mechanically inclined? If so, or if inclined to learn, this is an opportunity for sweat equity to minimize the expense with what you're facing. These engines are stone-simple and easy to remove and disassemble. You can act as your own general contractor for example, and send components to the appropriate shops for inspection and overhaul or repair. Your mechanic might be willing to assemble it after you get everything back and ready to go. No sense paying someone to work logistics with all of the components if you're willing/able to do it.

Jewell would be a great choice from what I've read here if you want to send it away.

Finding an airworthy engine might be difficult. You're hoping to find a plane that was scrapped without a prop strike, AND one that has been flying regularly right up until the past couple of weeks of your purchase, or you might be in the same boat again after another 3 oil changes.

FWIW, I lost a cam lobe over time but my crank still measured out in-spec (not undersized) as did all of my cylinders, gears, governor, etc.

Don't give up.


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Sorry you're dealing with this. I feel for you! I had the same thing happen with 3-4 clean changes until it started making metal. Have you seen the metal? Is it still flyable? I was making a little metal, but still the IA felt okay to sign the plane off during annual and I chose to fly it in for the R&R since Jewell's price on an R&R was very competitive. It was within Lycoming's guidelines on how much metal is "okay" in the filter.

Jewell has been doing well and so far, for an O-360 it's come in at $14,500 including the R&R, which includes a new carburator, ignition harness and fuel pump. It may be a bit more for an IO-360, but their prices are all pretty straight forward on the web site. I would add a few K for the inevitable accessories you may need to replace.

To fix the metal you might be looking at $8000-9000 without an overhaul, as long as the metal wasn't so huge that it really damaged some internal components..

You are in Arkansas which is right next to Jewell too. They have been doing a good job with sending me updates and it seems like they are right on schedule. Here are some of the latest pics they sent of them doing the bottom components (attached):

unnamed (1).jpg

unnamed (2).jpg

unnamed (3).jpg

unnamed (4).jpg

unnamed (5).jpg

unnamed (6).jpg

unnamed.jpg

I am hoping the engine they rebuild will last to TBO and beyond, but so far have been happy with their communication and timeliness. Time will tell how the engine will fare, but @aaronk25 speaks pretty highly of them and was the reason I went with them!

Edited by AlexLev
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1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Situation:

 IA just started my first post-purchase annual, and his first task to change oil......and found "significant" metal in the filter. Understanding that....when all is said and done.... an engine rebuild, which this essentially mandates, is going to be $30-40AMU fully burdened with the fees to remove/reinstall engine and deal with norms of component/accessory/hose replacement. That doesn't count dealing with whatever is found in the first annual ...figuring $3-6 K. 

My first three oil changes were clean on filter metal. Engine probably has about 900 hours on a Firewall Forward rebuild in the early 1990's. 

Because fuel instrumentation and voltage failed soon after purchasing the aircraft I put in CIES and and EDM 900.  Due to that and various other maintenance items, I have put in around 12-15K into the aircraft onto which the downpayment of $25K on the note of $67,500 and adding in a rebuild cost, and annual still to be done, the first year out of pocket costs would have me exceeding the cost of the aircraft. I think the only hope I have to salvage the thing from fire-sale/scrap is to find a serviceable engine in the 10-15AMU range ... installed LOL...I don't know if it is possible/advisable because I can't drop that and end up with another junk engine...it is already a financial bloodbath as it is. Basically my other option is to put it up for sale as-is and burn my pilots license and logbooks, which I have seriously considered doing at this point. I like the Mooney but am deeply regretting the day I got it. Any suggestions (suck it up and overhaul is not mathmatically possible). Thoughts? 

Sorry to read this.  That is definitely not a good experience I'd bet it is camshaft and lifter failure, both can be fixed and that engine can be IRAN.  I've been where you are and I can honestly say that it gets better.  My bigger concern is burning the pilots license and log books I hope you wouldn't  throw all that work and time away because of a machine.  That is an accomplishment that can move and carry with you to other aircraft.  The entire plane can be rebuilt with time and money and I am sure you are like me and don't have a money tree growing in your back yard.  But to throwing away your ability to fly,  I hope is just a passing moment and you will realize that it is something to be proud of! The logs and license are not damaged. 

As for the engine-  If it were me I'd park the plane and find some help to get the engine down and stripped.  Like @KSMooniac said if you can put some sweat equity into it you will save and learn a lot.  Not everything is going to be bad on that engine and not everything needs attention.  But everything needs inspection and you and an A/P can do that.  Also shop around there is nothing that says it has to be done in your home town that engine is small and can fit in a car making a perfect excuse for a road trip to a place that can do the work. 

Exceeding the value of the aircraft-  Welcome to owning a vintage bird, that happens. But when you are done you are flying along side people that have spent stupid money on the newest, latest, greatest bird and are still flying in the same airspace as you.  Its like driving a car/truck  some are in the Bentley and some are in the Yugo both are still sitting at the same traffic lights and sitting in the same traffic the only difference is the monthly payment.   Owning a plane is a privilege and a want not a need so my opinion is if you push forward over time and fix it up and fly as you go in the end you are meeting the dream expectations and still getting off the ground.  There is also the chance that you may win the lottery you don't know what the future holds.  Take it one step at a time and when all the poop hits the fan go rent a plane for an hour and get the "fix" you need and continue.

It was described to me once that flying is a disease I'm not sure about you but I couldn't walk away from it....   

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1 minute ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I’m very sorry to hear this. A question for @AlexLev.  Will Jewell keep your plane hangared while they are doing the overhaul or do they store them outside?  Also, how long did they tell you it would take?  I am currently at 1925 hours on my factory reman and right now Jewell is my plan of action.  If they do outside storage though I will probably R&R the engine myself under the supervision of my IA. 

Thank you, and again I’m really sorry for the OP. I wouldn’t risk throwing good money after bad personally by buying a used engine unless I really knew it’s pedigree and was comfortable with it. 

@bluehighwayflyer I am pretty sure it's kept hangared..I did ask them to and they said they would do their best and last I called them they said it was sitting in a hangar. I don't ask every day and maybe they move it around as necessary, but I trust they are keeping it well.

They gave me a 3-4 week timeline when I came in and looks like they will be right around that mark, but I know the volume of their engines increased quite a bit (they had 3 when I came in, now they have over 10)...so it may take a little longer.

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41 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

Sorry to read this.  That is definitely not a good experience I'd bet it is camshaft and lifter failure, both can be fixed and that engine can be IRAN.  I've been where you are and I can honestly say that it gets better.  My bigger concern is burning the pilots license and log books I hope you wouldn't  throw all that work and time away because of a machine.  That is an accomplishment that can move and carry with you to other aircraft.  The entire plane can be rebuilt with time and money and I am sure you are like me and don't have a money tree growing in your back yard.  But to throwing away your ability to fly,  I hope is just a passing moment and you will realize that it is something to be proud of! The logs and license are not damaged. 

Understood, I am proud of it, but even as an optimist, this line of issues is just becoming overwhelming,  leaving me to reluctantly consider that aviation *is* for those who do have stupid money. I do pretty well, earning wise, but this burn rate seems far out of scale with ownership norms (remember this is just the first year) and is a real attention getter that follows a string of frustrations over the years (long story not to bore anyone with) in trying fly in a way that supports my business activities. Anyway, one thing I can say is, wherever this "lands" you are an **Incredible** bunch of guys (& gals); bless you all!

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Understood, I am proud of it, but even as an optimist, this line of issues is just becoming overwhelming,  leaving me to reluctantly consider that aviation *is* for those who do have stupid money. I do pretty well, earning wise, but this burn rate seems far out of scale with ownership norms (remember this is just the first year) and is a real attention getter that follows a string of frustrations over the years (long story not to bore anyone with) in trying fly in a way that supports my business activities. Anyway, one thing I can say is, wherever this "lands" you are an **Incredible** bunch of guys (& gals); bless you all!
Take a break regroup. Do you have a picture as to how much metal was found? There are a few Gurus on here that can better say if it's too much. There is an allowance that will buy you time.

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1 hour ago, AlexLev said:

Sorry you're dealing with this. I feel for you! I had the same thing happen with 3-4 clean changes until it started making metal. Have you seen the metal? Is it still flyable? I was making a little metal, but still the IA felt okay to sign the plane off during annual and I chose to fly it in for the R&R since Jewell's price on an R&R was very competitive. It was within Lycoming's guidelines on how much metal is "okay" in the filter.

Jewell has been doing well and so far, for an O-360 it's come in at $14,500 including the R&R, which includes a new carburator, ignition harness and fuel pump. It may be a bit more for an IO-360, but their prices are all pretty straight forward on the web site. I would add a few K for the inevitable accessories you may need to replace.

To fix the metal you might be looking at $8000-9000 without an overhaul, as long as the metal wasn't so huge that it really damaged some internal components..

You are in Arkansas which is right next to Jewell too. They have been doing a good job with sending me updates and it seems like they are right on schedule. Here are some of the latest pics they sent of them doing the bottom components (attached):

unnamed (1).jpg

unnamed (2).jpg

unnamed (3).jpg

unnamed (4).jpg

unnamed (5).jpg

unnamed (6).jpg

unnamed.jpg

I am hoping the engine they rebuild will last to TBO and beyond, but so far have been happy with their communication and timeliness. Time will tell how the engine will fare, but @aaronk25 speaks pretty highly of them and was the reason I went with them!

It doesn’t look like they add the oil relief groove above the centre cam bearing.  A common source of leaks at the backbone of the engine.

Clarence

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3 hours ago, Stephen said:

Situation:

 IA just started my first post-purchase annual, and his first task to change oil......and found "significant" metal in the filter. Understanding that....when all is said and done.... an engine rebuild, which this essentially mandates, is going to be $30-40AMU fully burdened with the fees to remove/reinstall engine and deal with norms of component/accessory/hose replacement. That doesn't count dealing with whatever is found in the first annual ...figuring $3-6 K. 

My first three oil changes were clean on filter metal. Engine probably has about 900 hours on a Firewall Forward rebuild in the early 1990's. 

Because fuel instrumentation and voltage failed soon after purchasing the aircraft I put in CIES and and EDM 900.  Due to that and various other maintenance items, I have put in around 12-15K into the aircraft onto which the downpayment of $25K on the note of $67,500 and adding in a rebuild cost, and annual still to be done, the first year out of pocket costs would have me exceeding the cost of the aircraft. I think the only hope I have to salvage the thing from fire-sale/scrap is to find a serviceable engine in the 10-15AMU range ... installed LOL...I don't know if it is possible/advisable because I can't drop that and end up with another junk engine...it is already a financial bloodbath as it is. Basically my other option is to put it up for sale as-is. I like the Mooney but am deeply regretting the day I got it. Any suggestions (suck it up and overhaul is not mathmatically possible). Thoughts? 

With the engine having mid time since overhaul I would repair it and get it flying again.  A cam and lifter change while not cheap, it is a bunch cheaper than doing a full overhaul.  

In reality old vintage airplanes won’t go up in value equal to the cost of the engine.  

Clarence

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2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Thanks Clarence, that is informative; the mechanic sent the oil and filter off to analysis. I don't have the lab report yet but your link is very helpful to quantify how to deal with metal in the filter.

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Have you sent the metal to a lab to determine what is actually making the metal? I pay under $30 for Blackstone lab. They can usually pin point where metal is coming from pretty precisely knowing what alloys are used in various parts.

 

-Robert

Edited by RobertGary1

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15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I stand correct, I thought only Continental published guidelines in terms of amount of metal...

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Blackstone doesn't analyze filters, just aviation laboratories. My experience with them and metal wasn't super helpful--they did give me an AMS #, but Lycoming told me that AMS could refer to: crankshaft, camshaft, any gear...etc...so it didn't really narrow anything down. It turned out to be the cam and lifters, which it almost always usually is. Oftentimes you can tell just by what the metal looks like...if you posted a picture of it on a magnet, I'm sure we could give our non-expert PPL opinions :P

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30-40 k for an engine is high I think . Hell my bird is almost back togeather with a rebuilt TSIO -360 from Mena aircraft in Arkansas and his bill on the rebuilt engine was only 42k and the base price for the rebuild was 39k...... non of that is R&R just rebuild costs 

 

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Saw this add on barnstormers... He is on here too..... 

LYCOMING IO-360-A1A 1285 REMAN • $9,950 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE  IO-360-A1A 1285 SINCE FACTORY REMAN. NO PROP STRIKE • Contact Jerry Pressley, Owner - located Canton, NC USA • Telephone: 423 231 3491 • Posted January 23, 2018  Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser  Recommend This Ad to a Friend  Email Advertiser  Save to Watchlist  Report This Ad
 

Edited by ABCDEF
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How much metal is in the filter...

  • none, is always preferred...
  • A couple of flakes each annual is somewhat normal, from my O360 experience.
  • Examples of cam lobes wearing off, around here... the usual measurement is in tspns full.

You don’t need to be an engine guru to tell the difference... or know one to interpret the observation.

The words ‘significant’ doesn’t sound very wallet friendly....

Good luck with getting to the bottom of this challenge...

Best regards,

-a-

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9 hours ago, carusoam said:

How much metal is in the filter...

  • none, is always preferred...
  • A couple of flakes each annual is somewhat normal, from my O360 experience.
  • Examples of cam lobes wearing off, around here... the usual measurement is in tspns full.

You don’t need to be an engine guru to tell the difference... or know one to interpret the observation.

The words ‘significant’ doesn’t sound very wallet friendly....

Good luck with getting to the bottom of this challenge...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks Anthony, always appreciate your thoughts. 

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