Tommy

GTN 650 or IFD 440?

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8 hours ago, M016576 said:

Valid points- If you go all avidyne or all garmin, you probably won’t have interfacing issues.

on the other hand: when you say that database and/or FS costs are minuscule- that is somewhat relative.  For a 150K hull Bravo? Yes.  For a 40K E? No.  The recurring cost of databases and apps is relative to the hull value.

I was thinking more in relation to the yearly maintenance and engine reserve costs of the airplane.

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10 hours ago, M016576 said:

..... For a 150K hull Bravo? Yes.  For a 40K E? No.  The recurring cost of databases and apps is relative to the hull value.

I believe the cost of good maintenance is about the same for a 20 year old vs 50 year old airplane.  Ditto for data subscription.    

The owner’s expectations are driven by hull value, perhaps, often to their dismay when the real cost comes due.  

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3 hours ago, donkaye said:

I was thinking more in relation to the yearly maintenance and engine reserve costs of the airplane.

That’s a very good point... from a valuation standpoint it almost makes the “cheaper” Hulls kind of a bad purchase.  The expense to maintain them is just about the same as the more expensive hulls... but from a percentage standpoint, it’s cheaper.

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Competition is good. Early GTN650/750 owners have benefited tremendously from the IFD440/540.  New features have come out on the GTN since 2016 to keep up with what Avidyne had - bluetooth flight plan transfer, pinch to zoom to name a couple. Advanced features that the IFD's don't have yet have come out on the GTN to add value (telligence, visual approaches). It's been good for consumers when these companies try to stay ahead of one another. I can't wait to see what's next.

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That’s a very good point... from a valuation standpoint it almost makes the “cheaper” Hulls kind of a bad purchase.  The expense to maintain them is just about the same as the more expensive hulls... but from a percentage standpoint, it’s cheaper.

Agreed.
By the time you add up insurance, hangar, avgas, and maintenance for every year for 10 years, then sell the plane, even if it’s at a loss after all upgrades, the total yearly costs will dwarf the money you spent on purchasing and upgrading the plane.
If you want to save money, fly a PC simulator.
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On 2/11/2018 at 9:06 PM, Tommy said:

After much deliberation, I think I am ready to pull the trigger and update my panel. Initially I was hoping to do everything in one swoop - WAAS GPS + ADS-B + EFIS + / - Digital A/P but I am not able to part with my plane for more than 2 weeks and the state of affair with EFIS and digital A/P is still pretty muddy at the moment. So I am going to get GPS + ADS-B first! Everything I have at the moment is factory fitted except Com 2 for my 1981 J (KFC200). I have set my sight on GTN 650 + GTX 335 or IFD 440 + AXP 340

Knowing what you know now, which manufacturer / combination of will you go for today and why?

Thanks guys!

Tommy

I had to make exactly the same decision a few months ago for our M20J panel. We previously had a 430 (non-waas) GPS. I ended up going with a GTN650 + GTX345 for ADS-B. Super happy with them both. I researched this to death and attached the full note to my partners below with the details (about 4 months old). Baseline, the Avidyne and GTX are "compatible" - but don't fully talk to each other and also Foreflight (iOS) + Garmin Pilot (android). After talking to 5 avionics shops, no one had done this combo or really knew how to get weather + traffic on IFD and also tablets. Further, I really wanted the GTX-345 because it had a backup attitude indicator that can be viewed in Foreflight or Garmin Pilot. 

From a cost standpoint - the IFD is supposed to be a 'slide in' replacement on the 430, saving install dollars. But no shop I talked to would do this - they each said they've seen enough problems they only install with new mount and won't reuse the 20 year old 430 wiring harness. And since the 430 I had wasn't waas, I needed a new antenna setup anyway. I quoted 5 shops and the IFD+GTX345 solution was always a couple hundred bucks more than the GTN650+345. If you do a trade-in the shops will probably not give you good money for the 430. I had them 'yellow-tag' the 430 with the FAA return to service form (1 hr labor), and sold it on Ebay for $4800 (net after fees about $4200). 

As far as interface goes - I liked the IFD a lot. But the GTN650 touch interface is soooo much better than the 430 interface I think it's really splitting hairs.

Foreflight is working fine. I get weather + traffic + position + ahrs with no problem (but see my previous post in this forum about BT issues pre-iOS 11.2.5). 

One other nice thing - I can get monthly NavData updates from Garmin for entire US for $299/year. Previously, we were paying Jeppesen the same amount for US-West only for our 430. 

Also, I can now do coupled approaches ILS/GPS with our KAP150 auto-pilot. 

Good luck!

Mark

------

Previously, we did a lot of research and got quotes for two main GPS units that could replace the 430. Mainly, the Garmin GTN650 and the Avidyne IFD440. We also researched and proposed the GTX-345 transponder from Garmin.
 
Here are some more details of these combinations:
 
One previous proposed setup, the Avidyne IFD440 + GTX345 is not an ideal setup
1) not recommended by avionics shops (no one I talked to ever did this combo). A few actively discouraged it because of differing manufacturers. 
2) Limited connectivity - e.g. can show traffic on IFD but not weather. (However, the GTX can get GPS from IFD. ). A few folks on forums confirmed this is possible, with some setup time. But no tablet app I know besides Avidyne iOS IFD100 can get weather+traffic directly from IFD. Foreflight will talk to a GTX for weather + traffic, but not the Avidyne IFD440. 
 
Here are the two remaining options:
Option 1) Garmin GTN-650 (GPS) + GTX-345 (ADS-B in/out)
Pros:
-Known install with track record of many successful installs, and well-supported (Aerial said they’ve done a lot of these)
-GTX345 provides weather, traffic, and backup attitude (AHRS) to Foreflight (iOS) and Garmin Pilot (iOS/Android)
-GTN650 will receive weather + traffic from GTX. It can also send GPS to GTX so we can get the cheaper 345 transponder model (without built-in WAAS or another antenna)
-Can optionally add a FlightStream 510 ($1k drop-in SD card) at a future date to enable tablets to send/receive flight plans, and also to wirelessly update GTN650 databases from tablet. 
 
Cons:
-Touch-only interface better than 430 (according to forums), but still not as intuitive as Avidyne or others
-Limited app support -although GTX345 will do iOS and Android, only Foreflight (iOS) and Garmin Pilot (iOS/Android) are supported directly through GTX.
 
 
If we wanted to get the Avidyne IFD440, then nearly everyone I talked to (forums, avionics shops, avidyne) recommended the L3 Lynx NGT-9000 for the transponder. It looks like a great unit that does a lot of what we want, but is more expensive and lacks the AHRS attitude backup. Here are the details:
 
Option 2) IFD440 (GPS) + Lynx NGT-9000 (ADS-B in/out)
Pros:
-Very well regarded hybrid interface (button + touch) and very positive feedback in forums and by suppliers/installers
-Lynx 9000 has option for “active traffic”, which shows all traffic with basic Mode-S transponder, not just ADS-B out airplanes
-Lynx 9000 has Wifi that will talk to many apps (iOS + Android) for weather + traffic (Foreflight, etc)
 
Cons:
-Connecting to IFD directly (rather than through Lynx) won’t show weather or traffic yet on Foreflight, only through IFD100 iOS app
-More expensive (probably at least $1k-$2k)
-No backup attitude indicator. We would need to add a G5 or similar if we wanted attitude backup (+$3k).
-Although supposedly a drop-in replacement for the 430, the shop we quoted still replaces all wiring and won’t offer savings

 

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4 hours ago, Markmp said:

One previous proposed setup, the Avidyne IFD440 + GTX345 is not an ideal setup

1) not recommended by avionics shops (no one I talked to ever did this combo). A few actively discouraged it because of differing manufacturers. 
2) Limited connectivity - e.g. can show traffic on IFD but not weather. (However, the GTX can get GPS from IFD. ). A few folks on forums confirmed this is possible, with some setup time. But no tablet app I know besides Avidyne iOS IFD100 can get weather+traffic directly from IFD. Foreflight will talk to a GTX for weather + traffic, but not the Avidyne IFD440. 

Not true. Last March with the release of IFD 10.2 software the GTX-345 can show weather and traffic on the IFD 440/540/550.

From Avidyne's website:

5a8b7b1495125_ScreenShot2018-02-19at7_32_19PM.png.dc0de9cddb530008b2285ca870d1b367.png

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2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Not true. Last March with the release of IFD 10.2 software the GTX-345 can show weather and traffic on the IFD 440/540/550.

From Avidyne's website:

5a8b7b1495125_ScreenShot2018-02-19at7_32_19PM.png.dc0de9cddb530008b2285ca870d1b367.png

That's a good step if true - but last year it couldn't then send this info onto Foreflight, which their website still seems to confirm: https://support.foreflight.com/hc/en-us/articles/218282278-What-capabilities-does-the-Avidyne-440-or-540-system-provide-ForeFlight-

One other thing - in an old forum post someone said you can integrate with GTX but not at same time as a glass replacement like Aspen (it's either or) - do you know if that's true?

 

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2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Not true. Last March with the release of IFD 10.2 software the GTX-345 can show weather and traffic on the IFD 440/540/550.

From Avidyne's website:

5a8b7b1495125_ScreenShot2018-02-19at7_32_19PM.png.dc0de9cddb530008b2285ca870d1b367.png

This is definitely confusing - I emailed Avidyne directly in September 2017 and got this response from their sales engineer Dale Ferrer indicating they are not fully compatible:

The transponder you are describing sounds a lot like the NGT-9000, the GTX is similarly priced. Ultimately the answer is yes the GTX345 will integrate but doesn’t have full functionality. If you want all of the benefits of GTX345 to display on the 440 it won't happen, the NGT-9000 will do all of those things. The Skytrax only displays on the IFDs, it will also display on the IFD100 app but won't do the rest. As far as the autopilot you will have to ask the shop, we usually recommend an Aspen but there are other options.

 Dale Ferrer

Avionics Technical Sales Engineer

Avidyne

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11 hours ago, Markmp said:

That's a good step if true - but last year it couldn't then send this info onto Foreflight, which their website still seems to confirm: https://support.foreflight.com/hc/en-us/articles/218282278-What-capabilities-does-the-Avidyne-440-or-540-system-provide-ForeFlight-

One other thing - in an old forum post someone said you can integrate with GTX but not at same time as a glass replacement like Aspen (it's either or) - do you know if that's true?

 

I've read through the posts and I think some of the information being provided to you is old information, other information is slanted. The message from Dale that you quoted is not unexpected. All of these manufacturers are competing for the same piece of real estate that Garmin is. Avidyne, Aspen, BK and L-3 are working together at different levels and support each others products. Garmin has taken a different track. They support their stuff first and then, being the shrewd business people they are, address the rest of the market to make sure there are no table scraps.

Case in point. The GTX-345 when first introduced worked with their G500 (with I believe a firmware update on the G500). It didn't work on the Aspen. I'm sure not to lose sales to other competitors for the Aspen business, Garmin eventually allowed integration with the Aspen system. A GTX-345 will display traffic and weather on the Aspens.

My advice as someone who has done a fair amount of avionics upgrades is to develop a must have list of features and compatibilities you need. Garmin is clearly an integrated solution, but if you are dead set on using FlyQ, good luck with making that work. Even ForeFlight (a Garmin supported app) is not a given with the Garmin suite of avionics . In my particular case, flying a single engine, one electrical system plane, I wanted to have electronic redundancy. The G500 does not have a battery backup. It also could not do a PFD to MFD reversion (I think the new touch screen does though). Pick what is important to you and look for the feature sets in the available technologies. I wanted active traffic without spending a lot more for it. With the amount of glass I have in the plane, the iPad app plays a secondary role.

My plane is equipped with an Aspen 2000. It communicates seamlessly with the L-3 9000+. It communicates seamlessly with the Garmin GTN 650. The 9000+ sends traffic only to the GTN but I heard weather is now available. Not an urgent need for me since the Aspens both show weather as does the L-3 on it's own display. The 9000+ talks with a host of third party iPad apps but not Garmin Pilot. I like Garmin Pilot and if I did not have the Aspens or the L-3's displays I would be looking at a different solution. Garmin Pilot has the concierge function which works with the FlightStream 510 (only app that does). And it is my understanding the Avidyne integrators are all integrated with the non-Garmin hardware.

So, how do I use all this stuff? The iPad with Garmin Pilot is relegated to the database update tool and manages the flight plans that I send over to the GTN or receive back from it. The app is used also for pulling up the approach plates. No traffic, no weather. The Aspens are used for displaying the flight plans, navigation and for traffic and weather. On the L-3 9000+, if I am enroute, will have the traffic set to the 2 mile range on the left side and the right side will be used for weather, METARs, etc. The GTN 650? for selecting Com/Nav freqs, VNAV calculations, selecting procedures, etc. I also have FltPln Go loaded on my iPad and is the backup to the backup for weather and traffic since it is an app that can be fed from the L-3 9000+ and it is FREE.

Stay on the quest.... 

 

 

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