GTN 650 or IFD 440?

[kpaul]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

There's no comparison between the two boxes. The comparison is well documented on the Avidyne website

Rocket,

Now I am confused, is there or is there not a comparison? 

[rpcc]

16 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I traded in a 530 on an IFD540. There's no comparison between the two boxes. The comparison is well documented on the Avidyne website so I won't list it here. I'll just say a lot of thought went into my panel and the 530 to 540 upgrade was one of the best decisions I made.

First off - my apologies - I am expert a inserting my foot in my mouth and I realize my comments my not be very well received by folks with amazing panels.  I know panel discussions here generate as much passionate debate as LOP,  touch and goes, and parachutes so I will try to tread lightly.  

The point of my question was regarding the  value gained in either a 750 or 540 compared to adding flight stream to your existing garmin boxes and driving the garmin boxes from your ipad?   There's probably a 15-20k difference in cost - so what makes it worth removing that from your bank account as opposed to the flightstream .  What's the feature that made you want to write that check?   

 

[thinwing]

Both the IFD and GTN series bring advanced computing/engineering over the decades older 430/530w,especially with databases,automation of hold and hold entry's ,frequency management and displays.Both series will couple via short range radio data links in the 1200 MHz spectrum (wifi/Bluetooth)to modern tablet computers .It takes a separate unit (210)to do that with the 430w /530w series with limited functionality.Both units have been plagued with annoying software bugs with Avidyne heading up the top of that list.These require lengthy software rewrites for debugging and mostly effect functions between each mfd units.Ie..Garmin ahrs glitches while taxing caused by Avidyne software logic error.Also a well known Avidyne to BK 225 series Rnav approach glitch has been reintroduced in latest Avidyne software release.Garmin has not been glitch free either..with problems driving Aspen equipment.All these problems are a result of MFD attempts to reverse engineer each other's proprietary source codes.Garmin appears to have better software engineers...but one should give some thought as to be all Garmin...All Avidyne or a mix...eventually I believe this will all work it self out but will take years.

 

[kortopates]

First off - my apologies - I am expert a inserting my foot in my mouth and I realize my comments my not be very well received by folks with amazing panels.  I know panel discussions here generate as much passionate debate as LOP,  touch and goes, and parachutes so I will try to tread lightly.  

The point of my question was regarding the  value gained in either a 750 or 540 compared to adding flight stream to your existing garmin boxes and driving the garmin boxes from your ipad?   There's probably a 15-20k difference in cost - so what makes it worth removing that from your bank account as opposed to the flightstream .  What's the feature that made you want to write that check?   

 

You really need to take the time to do some reading so you can make a better informed decision since ultimately the value received is limited to what you'll appreciate.

But the technology has improved greatly. As far as approach types though there is little difference. Only one new approach type is added for approaches with RF legs with support only provided by GTN's unless Avidyne got that in their recent update ( it wasn't originally). But when we get into utilitarian improvements, including approach leg types we see lots of improvement. For example we now have support for heading mode legs which we didn't have on the old boxes. Heading mode legs are used on just about every missed approach - so we get much improved guidance on the missed. We also get support for airways , ability to program holds, and on the GTNs ability to program a visual approach into any runway at any airport which is great situational awareness tool. Many are satisfied enough to just see the color higher resolution touch screen which makes the larger units much more practical for also serving MFD roles. Avidyne takes that a step further with synthetic vision but I think GTN's have the edge on approach support. But it comes down to whatever makes sense for you and very clearly a GNS, as long as it has WAAS, will get the job done just fine even without FS210; but the FS sure gives it some new life. But I personally wouldn't accept a non WAAS box in 2018. Regardless of what you have in the panel, a WAAS box can keep you alive in partial panel and enable you fly partial panel to ATP standards with its 5 Hz GPS update compared to the 1 Hz non-WAAS update rate.

I only scratched the surface, so you'll have to study up and decide for yourself how happy you are with an oder box and your IPad. But in contrast I sure wouldn't want to rely on using my iPad interface. I have it, but I prefer to interface with my GTNs and the rest of my panel directly.

But no matter what you opt for, get to know your avionics intimately in VFR conditions first so your equipment is a tool rather than a distraction.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MIm20c]

I found the 750 interface very intuitive from the moment I started using it. Surprisingly, I struggle with it a lot more now that I’ve come up to speed on the 430w.  Not sure why but I find myself regressing on the newer boxes as I learn the older interface. 

[donkaye]

Until you have whatever equipment you end up choosing, you don't know how you will use it.  I chose to go with one vendor so the interface would  be easier and that proved to be the correct decision.  So I recommend that which ever products you choose, Garmin or Avidyne, go all in with that one vendor to save yourself a lot of interface headaches that many who mixed their products have had.

I've got all the interface goodies, FS 210 and FS 510, and this is what I have found.  I rarely open the iPad in flight unless I'm going on a long cross country and want to keep myself occupied looking at "stuff".  With local flying or trips up to about 2 hours, I get all the information I need from the panel mounts and Aera 796 ((weather, XM or FIS-B), XM radio, Stormscope).  In an emergency situation where I lost both the G500 and ESI 500 (an unheard of situation) the FS 210 AHRS provides attitude to both the 796 and iPad.  So the 210 is a nice backup gadget.  The 510 is useful mostly for database concierge.  I still have to take one card home from the G500 because database sync of flightcharts to it from the 750 is so slow.

For VFR only pilots the iPad and an external source of ADS-B IN with bluetooth, and a panel mounted ADS-B Out source is probably adequate.  For the instrument pilot a WAAS GPS, an external source of ADS-B IN with bluetooth, a panel mounted ADS-B OUT source, and a backup AI would be the minimum equipment avionics required. 

There probably is no justification for any of the new super boxes other than they certainly make flying a lot more enjoyable.  So if you want your flying to be more enjoyable then you can trade your money for that benefit.

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, rpcc said:

First off - my apologies - I am expert a inserting my foot in my mouth and I realize my comments my not be very well received by folks with amazing panels.  I know panel discussions here generate as much passionate debate as LOP,  touch and goes, and parachutes so I will try to tread lightly.  

The point of my question was regarding the  value gained in either a 750 or 540 compared to adding flight stream to your existing garmin boxes and driving the garmin boxes from your ipad?   There's probably a 15-20k difference in cost - so what makes it worth removing that from your bank account as opposed to the flightstream .  What's the feature that made you want to write that check?   

 

You are correct that there are no features in the IFD540 that would have gotten me to remove $15 or $20K from my bank to have it.  But I didn't.  On a Black Friday sale I traded my GNS530 and about $8K for the IFD540. And it was worth it to me to do that.

In addition to updating the technology along with everything @kortopates and @donkaye and others have said, I also factored in the continued decline in value of the GNS530. I figured this was the best deal I'd get on the swap and took it. 

It's also alot like justifying the difference in cost between my M20C and the 252 I fly now. I enjoy it more and it does things the other one couldn't do... and I could afford it.

[rpcc]

@kortopates, @donkaye, @gsxrpilot 

Thank you all for your replies.  They are very helpful.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, rpcc said:

@kortopates, @donkaye, @gsxrpilot 

Thank you all for your replies.  They are very helpful.

If you watch the used market the 540 comes up for sale often at 11.5-12k.  Add that to the almost free install (to the Garmin waas slots) and the $1k saved not needing the fs210 and it really is a good deal IMO.  If buying new the units will cost the same and I feel the 750 is the better value mainly because Garmin is likely to be more stable over the next 30 years. 

I also agree with @gsxrpilot, if I owned a 430/530 non waas unit right now I’d be selling them NOW. Used 430’s still command the high 4’s with the waas upgrade costing 4K.  

[Marauder]

24 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

If you watch the used market the 540 comes up for sale often at 11.5-12k.  Add that to the almost free install (to the Garmin waas slots) and the $1k saved not needing the fs210 and it really is a good deal IMO.  If buying new the units will cost the same and I feel the 750 is the better value mainly because Garmin is likely to be more stable over the next 30 years. 

I also agree with @gsxrpilot, if I owned a 430/530 non waas unit right now I’d be selling them NOW. Used 430’s still command the high 4’s with the waas upgrade costing 4K.  

Any idea why these 540s comes up for sale on the used market?

[LANCECASPER]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Any idea why these 540s comes up for sale on the used market?

In my case my 540 was on the market because I upgraded to the IFD550.

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah, I got an offer from Avidyne to upgrade trade-in my 540 on a 550. Of course they want $5499 along with my used 540 to do the swap. But since ARS and "Dynamic SV"  are the only differences, I can't see the justification on the five and a half grand. I rarely use the SV as it is and have an Aspen, G5, and iPad all with ARS on them, so redundancy is covered...   I don't know, I might someday...

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/11/2018 at 11:06 PM, Tommy said:

After much deliberation, I think I am ready to pull the trigger and update my panel. Initially I was hoping to do everything in one swoop - WAAS GPS + ADS-B + EFIS + / - Digital A/P but I am not able to part with my plane for more than 2 weeks and the state of affair with EFIS and digital A/P is still pretty muddy at the moment. So I am going to get GPS + ADS-B first! Everything I have at the moment is factory fitted except Com 2 for my 1981 J (KFC200). I have set my sight on GTN 650 + GTX 335 or IFD 440 + AXP 340

Knowing what you know now, which manufacturer / combination of will you go for today and why?

Thanks guys!

Tommy

Here's a recent write-up on Beechtalk:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=149327

[Cruiser]

hear is another comment from the Beechtalk forum

"Here's the thing....the money isn't even close. I think the GTN is at least $5k more and you have to pay at least $5k to install it. I get that its Garmin and that is all a lot of people need to hear but the truth is that if Garmin had come out with the IFD540 and Avidyne was selling the GTN750, I think Avidyne would go under. Anyone with a GNS530 thinking about upgrading to the GTN750, do yourself a favor and go fly the IFD540 before you decide."

[M016576]

3 hours ago, Cruiser said:

hear is another comment from the Beechtalk forum

"Here's the thing....the money isn't even close. I think the GTN is at least $5k more and you have to pay at least $5k to install it. I get that its Garmin and that is all a lot of people need to hear but the truth is that if Garmin had come out with the IFD540 and Avidyne was selling the GTN750, I think Avidyne would go under. Anyone with a GNS530 thinking about upgrading to the GTN750, do yourself a favor and go fly the IFD540 before you decide."

Sage advice for those of us that see saving 10K for what it is- the price of a very functional car.... or years of Avgas!

that comment about “avidyne building the GTN” is probably true, too- without the easy of the slide in replacement, it would have been a tough sell.  Good On them for finding a chink in Garmin’s proverbial armor.

[MIm20c]

Number tend to fly high around here. The 750 is $600 more than the 540.  For a clean install like the OP was asking about the install price would be the same. To replace a 430/530 is not going to be a $9k labor charge, probably more like $3k.  The places taking a used unit in are normally trying to flip (taking on risk/cost to put on the shelf or refurb) with a $1k margin. So I feel the price delta is zero for a clean install and $2.5k for a 430/530 swap. 

[M016576]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Number tend to fly high around here. The 750 is $600 more than the 540.  For a clean install like the OP was asking about the install price would be the same. To replace a 430/530 is not going to be a $9k labor charge, probably more like $3k.  The places taking a used unit in are normally trying to flip (taking on risk/cost to put on the shelf or refurb) with a $1k margin. So I feel the price delta is zero for a clean install and $2.5k for a 430/530 swap. 

From Chief Avionics:

new IFD540- 13795

new GTN750-14775

new flightstream 510- 1495

new flightstream 210- 999

so, for the same capability, you’re looking at ~$2-$2500 plus $200 a year extra subscription cost for the Garmin units for a clean install.  Figure $3K delta if their is already a 430/530 installed and you’re looking at a 5K difference.  If you find a used avidyne unit, you’re now looking at a 7K+ difference.... 

Here’s some irony for Garmin: they have worked so hard to encode their data streams and to make proprietary trays and wiring.... if they would have just kept their tray standard on the GTN with the 530, they would have put avidyne out of business... and if they would have used the same pin out as aspen for their 500TXi, they would probably put aspen out of business too.... I guess they just don’t realize or consider the extreme cost of installing Avionics... or thy don’t think they could use that to gain market share.  Shrewd move on avidyne’s part to capitalize on installation.

Edited February 17, 2018 by M016576

[aviatoreb]

I would get an exchange for my GNS430W to an IDF440 - quick install.  But I want to get one of the new generation of digital autopilots.  Perhaps the GFC500.  I want to see what shakes out, especially regarding compatibility, since I don't want to install something now, just to want to replace it in a year.

[Tommy]

So If I went with IFD440 (wifi+BT) 

If I would to replace my vaccum and autopilot (KFC200), what options do I have now? 

[MIm20c]

@M016576 I looked at Sarasota for the numbers but still feel the difference is negligible.  The wifi adapters are very costly and it’s a shame they didn’t include the 510 with new 650/750 units.  Can’t play the used card unless you do the same for both, again they will be the same price. 

The update cost will be the same for both of you use the same company, Jeppesen. 

If I was upgrading my 430w it would be a used 440 no question. However, with a new install I’d really look hard at the 650/750. 

[M016576]

9 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

@M016576 I looked at Sarasota for the numbers but still feel the difference is negligible.  The wifi adapters are very costly and it’s a shame they didn’t include the 510 with new 650/750 units.  Can’t play the used card unless you do the same for both, again they will be the same price. 

The update cost will be the same for both of you use the same company, Jeppesen. 

If I was upgrading my 430w it would be a used 440 no question. However, with a new install I’d really look hard at the 650/750. 

I’m just showing the numbers as I see them, and laying it out as objectively as possible.  If you want the baseline GTN, then the GTN is only ~$900 more expensive.  But if you want the same functionality as the IFD540 you need to add some sort of WiFi portal

the database updates cost the same, true.  The $200 recurring cost I’m referring to is the cost of either a foreflight subscription or a Garmin EFB subscription.  Without that, the flight stream is useless.  With the IFD540, you get the IFD100 App for free, which allows you to manipulate and plan for your IFD540.  The IFD100 app does not include charts, but for those of us with a free EFB that has charts, this is a compelling perk.

objectively- it costs more to own and operate the GTN units.

[Marauder]

I’m just showing the numbers as I see them, and laying it out as objectively as possible.  If you want the baseline GTN, then the GTN is only ~$900 more expensive.  But if you want the same functionality as the IFD540 you need to add some sort of WiFi portal
the database updates cost the same, true.  The $200 recurring cost I’m referring to is the cost of either a foreflight subscription or a Garmin EFB subscription.  Without that, the flight stream is useless.  With the IFD540, you get the IFD100 App for free, which allows you to manipulate and plan for your IFD540.  The IFD100 app does not include charts, but for those of us with a free EFB that has charts, this is a compelling perk.
objectively- it costs more to own and operate the GTN units.

As someone who has spent a little on avionics, the whole in cost seems to be missed by many. People always would say a G500 is cheaper than a dual Aspen. It is until you add in the GAD-43e. It’s the Apple to Apple comparison that will show the real cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[donkaye]

In the overall cost of airplane ownership, database costs and/or FS 510 or 210 costs, are minuscule and probably shouldn't even be factored into an avionics upgrade decision.  OTOH compatibility of products definitely should be factored into the decision.  Reading on here and on Beechtalk about all the issues people have by using products made by multiple vendors and their troubleshooting expenses, makes me very happy to have mostly one vendor associated with my upgrade.  I never had ANY interface issues and got some pretty major discounts on the products themselves as the result of doing everything all at one.  Makes the comparison of costs between GPS products not important at all.  Read the manuals of functionality of all the products you are considering.  If you like some functionality over the other, then that is the unit  you should buy.  At some point in a future update Garmin will probably add step-down altitudes.  Until then, I can do without them in favor of some other capabilities the competition doesn't have like the VFR approaches and Telligence.  Also, Garmin Pilot continues to be updated to have some pretty slick features.

[M016576]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

In the overall cost of airplane ownership, database costs and/or FS 510 or 210 costs, are minuscule and probably shouldn't even be factored into an avionics upgrade decision.  OTOH compatibility of products definitely should be factored into the decision.  

Valid points- If you go all avidyne or all garmin, you probably won’t have interfacing issues.

on the other hand: when you say that database and/or FS costs are minuscule- that is somewhat relative.  For a 150K hull Bravo? Yes.  For a 40K E? No.  The recurring cost of databases and apps is relative to the hull value.

[ArtVandelay]

Valid points- If you go all avidyne or all garmin, you probably won’t have interfacing issues.
on the other hand: when you say that database and/or FS costs are minuscule- that is somewhat relative.  For a 150K hull Bravo? Yes.  For a 40K E? No.  The recurring cost of databases and apps is relative to the hull value.

I think he was talking about the $200 for FF ($150 for GP)...about the price of a fill up of avgas.
I tried looking up the database costs for Avidyne boxes, they don’t list them, they require you to call them, what’s the big secret? From I gather from Internet forums, they are more expensive than Garmin.