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jasona900

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FYI, this is from a beechtalk member..........

My avionics shop, whom I’ve used for over 20 years, great folks, sent me an estimate for a G500 txi install. New panel , move some stuff around , SVT. $36,000
No surprise, expensive , but I knew that . 
Garmin is the surprise. The basic unit does NOT include any engine monitoring capability. You want that? $6500 extra just for the equipment/software to display it ON the 500. 
No separate monitor...you want a Garmin EIS monitor add another $7000 for the equipment plus labor.

 

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10 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

FYI, this is from a beechtalk member..........

My avionics shop, whom I’ve used for over 20 years, great folks, sent me an estimate for a G500 txi install. New panel , move some stuff around , SVT. $36,000
No surprise, expensive , but I knew that . 
Garmin is the surprise. The basic unit does NOT include any engine monitoring capability. You want that? $6500 extra just for the equipment/software to display it ON the 500. 
No separate monitor...you want a Garmin EIS monitor add another $7000 for the equipment plus labor.

 

I wonder if you can use the 7 inch display for both the EIS and backup PFD display to eliminate all other backup displays?

TXI 10 inch |  TXI 7 Inch |  750  |  750

I think I could keep it shiny side up with that!

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FYI, again from a different forum re: G500 trade-in on tXi

"As for Garmin, I’ve been told they will be using hardware out of display trade-ins for warranty support."

My Comment: Whaaaatt? I thought the "new" tXi was new hardware/technology??? What could they possible be using from the "old" boxes? Unless the "new" tXi is just "lipstick on a pig" masquerading as an upgrade.

Besides what respectable company would try to pass off used parts as warranty repairs??????

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4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The important thing is they have hardware now not just pretty pictures and broken promises.  BK just bumped production another six months...

I curious what a diehard BK supporter would do if the 256 went TU and he or she was AOG until a replacement was found. 3k to rebuild the Swiss Watch that has a used value of $200?  1k to buy and setup a used one and play Russian Roulette? Or keep the bird looking like new in the hanger while calling the local salesman on a weekly basis?

Joking aside I feel that all the companies need to continue innovating, hopefully at a faster rate. I hope the FAA will allow companies that have proven certified equipment to fast track changes and upgrades to keep safety and enjoyment up. Hundreds of installers around the country are already familiar with the Aspen system and will be able to support those changes over reasonable time frames. 

I was referring to Aspen as old tech.  Still functional., still nice, and I would definitely keep using it if I had one already installed.  But I would rather not spend the money today to install such an old tech.  I would sooner get something more modern.  Or cheaper.  Or best of all both.

If I were AOG, then yeah - I would change my tune.  But right now I am crossing fingers and holding out for the next generation....  But I am no longer in the mood to overhaul my KI256 Swiss watch stuff anymore.  I love the concept of it.....but its time to retire these goods as soon as I decide what I want.  As of what I know today - I would be choosing between GFC500+dual G5 or Dynon goodies.

Edited by aviatoreb
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FYI, again from a different forum re: G500 trade-in on tXi
"As for Garmin, I’ve been told they will be using hardware out of display trade-ins for warranty support."
My Comment: Whaaaatt? I thought the "new" tXi was new hardware/technology??? What could they possible be using from the "old" boxes? Unless the "new" tXi is just "lipstick on a pig" masquerading as an upgrade.
Besides what respectable company would try to pass off used parts as warranty repairs??????

They will use it for original 500 repairs, not txi repairs, ie they stop making 500 parts.
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What does a single aspen display that dual G5s doesn’t?  (With respect to what is needed for safe imc ops).  I know you can pay extra to get syn vis, AOA, etc..., but what is the different league that folks have mentioned in this thread? @gsxrpilot 

Edited by Browncbr1
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1 minute ago, Browncbr1 said:

What does a single aspen display that dual G5s doesn’t?  (With respect to what is needed for safe imc ops).  I know you can pay extra to get syn vis, AOA, etc..., but what is the different league that folks have mentioned in this thread?

Other than svt - which yes is super nice - it looks mostly the same to me.  Except g5 is cheaper - but I would only buy dual G5 as part of a GFC500 install.

...and I already have a superb AOA - better than the one in the aspen because mine is mounted on the glare-shield for easier use during late stages of flight - landing - when I am looking at the runway during the last few seconds of flight.  And mine talks to me in English if I am getting slow.  So for me the AOA in the aspen is not a feature I would buy.

...when will Garmin come out with the g6.  It will be a g5 with svt.

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Just now, aviatoreb said:

Other than svt - which yes is super nice - it looks mostly the same to me.  Except g5 is cheaper - but I would only buy dual G5 as part of a GFC500 install.

...and I already have a superb AOA - better than the one in the aspen because mine is mounted on the glare-shield for easier use during late stages of flight - landing - when I am looking at the runway during the last few seconds of flight.  And mine talks to me in English if I am getting slow.  So for me the AOA in the aspen is not a feature I would buy.

...when will Garmin come out with the g6.  It will be a g5 with svt.

 

Yea, I must be missing something the aspen guys know.  It seems to be all the same stuff basically.  It’s nice the aspen has OAT and can calculate TAS and all, but I don’t think those are critical continual scan items.   I’m not looking to say one is better than the other   I’m just confused why some would consider aspen is in a different league from a dual g5 install.  I would say that a dual G5 install is on a different league than a single G5   Or an aspen is compared to a single G5 install..  

I’m not sure if the aspen does this, but the G5 AI displays lateral and vertical deviation bars in a dual install.  The DG on both hsi and AI both show heading, ground track, and desired track bugs.  I’m Still getting used to interpreting all the data from one screen, rather than looking else where on my panel  

 

I’m hoping they roll out more features with software updates, which seems to be what’s going on.  

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38 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

 

Yea, I must be missing something the aspen guys know.  It seems to be all the same stuff basically.  It’s nice the aspen has OAT and can calculate TAS and all, but I don’t think those are critical continual scan items.   I’m not looking to say one is better than the other   I’m just confused why some would consider aspen is in a different league from a dual g5 install.  I would say that a dual G5 install is on a different league than a single G5   Or an aspen is compared to a single G5 install..  

I’m not sure if the aspen does this, but the G5 AI displays lateral and vertical deviation bars in a dual install.  The DG on both hsi and AI both show heading, ground track, and desired track bugs.  I’m Still getting used to interpreting all the data from one screen, rather than looking else where on my panel  

 

I’m hoping they roll out more features with software updates, which seems to be what’s going on.  

We are agreed.

Now for software updates in the G5.  My guess is they are marketing - meaning it can do more and they will release more when they figure the market is saturating or some external pressure forces them.

I have a hard time believing that my iPad can do a superb implementation of Garmin's SVT inside of Garmin Pilot App (and likewise the Foreflight version) and that either the G5 does not already have a processor capable of it - or if not - some relatively standard hardware update from an engineering standpoint - a new chipset - couldn't do the job, and wrapper it as the G6.

Actually for me - its what's happening with the digital autopilot revolution which is driving my pause on any other panel updates until it becomes clear what is available and what hardware is needed for it.

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52 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

 

Yea, I must be missing something the aspen guys know.  It seems to be all the same stuff basically.  It’s nice the aspen has OAT and can calculate TAS and all, but I don’t think those are critical continual scan items.   I’m not looking to say one is better than the other   I’m just confused why some would consider aspen is in a different league from a dual g5 install.  I would say that a dual G5 install is on a different league than a single G5   Or an aspen is compared to a single G5 install..  

I’m not sure if the aspen does this, but the G5 AI displays lateral and vertical deviation bars in a dual install.  The DG on both hsi and AI both show heading, ground track, and desired track bugs.  I’m Still getting used to interpreting all the data from one screen, rather than looking else where on my panel  

 

I’m hoping they roll out more features with software updates, which seems to be what’s going on.  

I have yet to fly behind a G5, but have flown a few times behind an Aspen.   I find the Aspen throws a ton of information at you in a somewhat small screen. But once you adjust your scan and learn to interpret all of that info, it is nice to have.   I have yet to realize the benefit from SVT for the type of flying I do.  Granted the tallest thing you might run into where I fly is a wind powered generator, but you always have the MOCA to keep you safe.  I guess it could be one of those things you don't realize you need until you REALLY need it... but both the SVT and AOA features offered from Aspen increase the gee-wiz factor (which by the way, is still a factor to me).  One thing that I do like about Aspen and not about the G5 is how well it plays with my Stec 55x.  I like how I can preselect an altitude to drive my AP on the Aspen.  If I could do that with the G5, I would save a few AMUs and go the Garmin route.

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@Browncbr1 and @aviatoreb The G5 certainly gives you the basics. If you're looking for what is required for IFR flight, then the G5 is enough. But the additional features on the Aspen are worth the extra to me.

I have course deviation markers both horizontal and vertical on the top half of the Aspen. They are grey when the approach is loaded and turn green as the localizer and/or glide slope is acquired. I also have the Minimums for the approach which will give me a green to yellow to red indication as I approach minimums. I really like having the OAT, TAS, Wind speed and direction. None of this is required when the KFC150 is shooting a full coupled approach. But if I'm hand flying it sure makes a difference. It's also nice to have during enroute segments for adjustments to altitude and course. Of course it can all be calculated but it's nice to have it displayed in real time.  Because the Aspen is a single unit with the HSI/DG, there are some really nice features here as well. I like having the course including waypoints, turns, holds, etc depicted on the HSI. This can be zoomed in/out/auto. I can also overlay two additional needles on the HSI. So for example I can have the HSI needle slaved to the GPS, another needle so a VOR, and a third needle to a second VOR or GPS or other Nav source. The needles are different "font" and so easy to recognize. In the corner of the HSI is track/time/distance to the next waypoint. This is again nice to have when ATC asks for a position or asks me to report X miles from the IAF or something similar. Finally I can display the HSI as a full circle (best during an approach) or a half circle (nice for enroute). All of these are standard features.

None of this is required and might not even seem like much. But I've flown just over 100 hours since June, with both an Aspen PFD and G5 front and center in my panel, and I see the difference and it's significant to me. I'm not trying to sell any Aspen units here. From the research I did, I decided the Aspen PFD was the best decision for me. As I mentioned before, I didn't pay retail but got the PFD off of Barnstormers at a significant discount. But then I rarely if ever pay retail. I prefer to take my time and collect the parts when I can to save some money. So just sharing my personal experience. If either of you are ever in the Austin area, you'd be more than welcome to go up in my 252 and see the two units side by side for yourself.

One final note... I'm not a fan of Garmin's move to a single rotating knob. It's not super easy to get to all the settings you want from that single knob and I find myself going to quickly, changing the wrong thing and having to reset and do it again. That's the G5.

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2 minutes ago, jasona900 said:

I have yet to fly behind a G5, but have flown a few times behind an Aspen.   I find the Aspen throws a ton of information at you in a somewhat small screen. But once you adjust your scan and learn to interpret all of that info, it is nice to have.   I have yet to realize the benefit from SVT for the type of flying I do.  Granted the tallest thing you might run into where I fly is a wind powered generator, but even in over the mountains, you have the MOCA to keep you safe.  I guess it could be one of those things you don't realize you need until you REALLY need it... but both the SVT and AOA features offered from Aspen increase the gee-wiz factor (which by the way, is still a factor to me).  One thing that I do like about Aspen and not about the G5 is how well it plays with my Stec 55x.  I like how I can preselect an altitude to drive my AP on the Aspen.  If I could do that with the G5, I would save a few AMUs and go the Garmin route.

I am pretty sure the g5/gad29b can drive stec APs, but I would have to reference the manual about which models.  I know that with mine, I just turn the AP on and then control it from the G5 HSI. 

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8 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I curious what a diehard BK supporter would do if the 256 went TU and he or she was AOG until a replacement was found. 3k to rebuild the Swiss Watch that has a used value of $200?  1k to buy and setup a used one and play Russian Roulette? Or keep the bird looking like new in the hanger while calling the local salesman on a weekly basis?

The local avionics shop said they'd give me a KI-256 for just the installation cost if I need one to keep me running until the GFC500 gets approved, they're basically just sitting on the shelf.

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4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

@Browncbr1 and @aviatoreb The G5 certainly gives you the basics. If you're looking for what is required for IFR flight, then the G5 is enough. But the additional features on the Aspen are worth the extra to me.

I have course deviation markers both horizontal and vertical on the top half of the Aspen. They are grey when the approach is loaded and turn green as the localizer and/or glide slope is acquired. I also have the Minimums for the approach which will give me a green to yellow to red indication as I approach minimums. I really like having the OAT, TAS, Wind speed and direction. None of this is required when the KFC150 is shooting a full coupled approach. But if I'm hand flying it sure makes a difference. It's also nice to have during enroute segments for adjustments to altitude and course. Of course it can all be calculated but it's nice to have it displayed in real time.  Because the Aspen is a single unit with the HSI/DG, there are some really nice features here as well. I like having the course including waypoints, turns, holds, etc depicted on the HSI. This can be zoomed in/out/auto. I can also overlay two additional needles on the HSI. So for example I can have the HSI needle slaved to the GPS, another needle so a VOR, and a third needle to a second VOR or GPS or other Nav source. The needles are different "font" and so easy to recognize. In the corner of the HSI is track/time/distance to the next waypoint. This is again nice to have when ATC asks for a position or asks me to report X miles from the IAF or something similar. Finally I can display the HSI as a full circle (best during an approach) or a half circle (nice for enroute). All of these are standard features.

None of this is required and might not even seem like much. But I've flown just over 100 hours since June, with both an Aspen PFD and G5 front and center in my panel, and I see the difference and it's significant to me. I'm not trying to sell any Aspen units here. From the research I did, I decided the Aspen PFD was the best decision for me. As I mentioned before, I didn't pay retail but got the PFD off of Barnstormers at a significant discount. But then I rarely if ever pay retail. I prefer to take my time and collect the parts when I can to save some money. So just sharing my personal experience. If either of you are ever in the Austin area, you'd be more than welcome to go up in my 252 and see the two units side by side for yourself.

One final note... I'm not a fan of Garmin's move to a single rotating knob. It's not super easy to get to all the settings you want from that single knob and I find myself going to quickly, changing the wrong thing and having to reset and do it again. That's the G5.

 Thanks for the invite and same goes for you if you’re in East TN. A dual G5 install is definitely much more than single.  As mentioned earlier, it gives the green deviation bars on the AI also, like the aspen.  

I didn’t know the minimums Call out feature was standard on the aspen. Do you have to keep a data subscription on the aspen for that?   I set my Aera 660 to call out 500, which is nice, so I know what you mean.   The G5 hsi shows next way point distance, ground speed and other stuff I’m still getting used to.  In fact, with the latest firmware, there is redundant info on both G5s, but I think garmin will eventually clean things up in that respect.  For example, ground speed is displayed on both screens.  Just needs to be in one place rather than waste realestate.  

With dual G5s you get two knobs like the aspen, controlling different functions.  

Perhaps the biggest selling point to me about dual G5s is the reversionary independent battery backups with primary certification.  

I really would like to fly an aspen one day under the hood though. ;)

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1 minute ago, Browncbr1 said:

 Thanks for the invite and same goes for you if you’re in East TN. A dual G5 install is definitely much more than single.  As mentioned earlier, it gives the green deviation bars on the AI also, like the aspen.  

I didn’t know the minimums Call out feature was standard on the aspen. Do you have to keep a data subscription on the aspen for that?   I set my Aera 660 to call out 500, which is nice, so I know what you mean.   The G5 hsi shows next way point distance, ground speed and other stuff I’m still getting used to.  In fact, with the latest firmware, there is redundant info on both G5s, but I think garmin will eventually clean things up in that respect.  For example, ground speed is displayed on both screens.  Just needs to be in one place rather than waste realestate.  

With dual G5s you get two knobs like the aspen, controlling different functions.  

Perhaps the biggest selling point to me about dual G5s is the reversionary independent battery backups with primary certification.  

I really would like to fly an aspen one day under the hood though. ;)

I have to set the minimums. But I can set it at anytime. So typically I'll put in the minimums for the approach I expect to get while enroute. It then becomes active when I'm on the approach.  

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Flush mount definitely.  This photo is not current.  The 510 was replaced with a 660. (Awesome, way better).  And I’ve pulled the D2 and I’ve not decided if I want to move my ki209 up and move the strike finder to bottom right or the jpi830.  

If I had done it all over again, I would have flush mounted the 660 in portrait format right of the G5s , then I would have synthetic vision poor mans pfd   

07FF7560-93E3-47D7-9DEA-5856A4510F31.jpeg

Edited by Browncbr1
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Yea, I must be missing something the aspen guys know.  It seems to be all the same stuff basically.  It’s nice the aspen has OAT and can calculate TAS and all, but I don’t think those are critical continual scan items.   I’m not looking to say one is better than the other   I’m just confused why some would consider aspen is in a different league from a dual g5 install.  I would say that a dual G5 install is on a different league than a single G5   Or an aspen is compared to a single G5 install..  
I’m not sure if the aspen does this, but the G5 AI displays lateral and vertical deviation bars in a dual install.  The DG on both hsi and AI both show heading, ground track, and desired track bugs.  I’m Still getting used to interpreting all the data from one screen, rather than looking else where on my panel  
 
I’m hoping they roll out more features with software updates, which seems to be what’s going on.  


The G5 and Aspen PFD have many similar features. Where they differ is several areas.

What they have in common are the basic features: AI, tapes, VSI, altitude alert, single cue flight director, horizontal and vertical command bars, GPSS, etc. The Garmin HSI can take multiple Nav sources and will display two. The Aspen will display 3 (Good for crossing radials etc. ).

The Aspen has the ability to display V speeds. I didn’t see that on the G5.

The Aspen PFD has a moving map under the HSI, the G5 doesn’t. The HSI can be configured only in a compass rose on the G5, the Aspen has the ability to display an arc mode.

The Aspen has autoslewing. Not sure if the G5 does this.

Both have an altitude alert but the Aspen has the ability to place a second altitude for an MDA or DA. If you have a radar altimeter, that altitude can be set as well.

The Aspen has a built in magnetometer. The G5 has it as an option.

The G5 can control the GFC 500, not certain what the Aspen will be capable of doing with the GFC 500. The Aspen comes standard with an ACU to control most analog autopilots. You may need the EA100 for King APs.

G5 needs to have constant GPS input from a navigator. The Aspen has an emergency GPS that will keep the flight plan active.

The Aspen can display traffic and weather on the HSI. It will also trigger a traffic alert message. The G5 cannot.

The Aspen has a built in temp gauge for OAT.

The Aspen has a data field that shows the next waypoint, the distance and ETE. The G5 doesn’t.

The aforementioned SVT is not available on the G5. If you have the Aspen SVT, it will show traffic on the AI, terrain alerts and the ability to set 3 different SVT configurations.

Where the real power in the Aspen setup is with an MFD 1000 added in. You get full redundancy of everything from the PFD including autopilot control (analog). The MFD has a redundant AHRS and all the other sensors. Plus multiple views ranging from a single page to three pages displaying different information.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


The G5 and Aspen PFD have many similar features. Where they differ is several areas.

What they have in common are the basic features: AI, tapes, VSI, altitude alert, single cue flight director, horizontal and vertical command bars, GPSS, etc. The Garmin HSI can take multiple Nav sources and will display two. The Aspen will display 3 (Good for crossing radials etc. ).

The Aspen has the ability to display V speeds. I didn’t see that on the G5.

The Aspen PFD has a moving map under the HSI, the G5 doesn’t. The HSI can be configured only in a compass rose on the G5, the Aspen has the ability to display an arc mode.

The Aspen has autoslewing. Not sure if the G5 does this.

Both have an altitude alert but the Aspen has the ability to place a second altitude for an MDA or DA. If you have a radar altimeter, that altitude can be set as well.

The Aspen has a built in magnetometer. The G5 has it as an option.

The G5 can control the GFC 500, not certain what the Aspen will be capable of doing with the GFC 500. The Aspen comes standard with an ACU to control most analog autopilots. You may need the EA100 for King APs.

G5 needs to have constant GPS input from a navigator. The Aspen has an emergency GPS that will keep the flight plan active.

The Aspen can display traffic and weather on the HSI. It will also trigger a traffic alert message. The G5 cannot.

The Aspen has a built in temp gauge for OAT.

The Aspen has a data field that shows the next waypoint, the distance and ETE. The G5 doesn’t.

The aforementioned SVT is not available on the G5. If you have the Aspen SVT, it will show traffic on the AI, terrain alerts and the ability to set 3 different SVT configurations.

Where the real power in the Aspen setup is with an MFD 1000 added in. You get full redundancy of everything from the PFD including autopilot control (analog). The MFD has a redundant AHRS and all the other sensors. Plus multiple views ranging from a single page to three pages displaying different information.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Thanks for laying is all out like this.   I knew the aspen had a lot of the same cool features you mentioned, as the sandel3308 also has.  Multiple nav needles, rmi, etc.  

the g5 does display v speeds along the tape.  I didn’t know it also has an altitude alert.  I thought it was just a bug.  Still learning to use its features.  

The more I talk about this the more I wish I had put the 660 in the panel next to the G5s to display traffic, weather, and synthetic vision with the gdl39 3D.    

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10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

What they have in common are the basic features: AI, tapes, VSI, altitude alert, single cue flight director, horizontal and vertical command bars, GPSS, etc. The Garmin HSI can take multiple Nav sources and will display two. The Aspen will display 3 (Good for crossing radials etc. )

Does the G5 support some FDs now? 

I have a Century 41 dual que, I don’t believe the aspen supports a dual que. If the G5 can I will probably go that route. Although I’d prefer the Aspen.

Cheers,

Dan

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47 minutes ago, Steve W said:

The local avionics shop said they'd give me a KI-256 for just the installation cost if I need one to keep me running until the GFC500 gets approved, they're basically just sitting on the shelf.

Yep, the prices on anything BK have dropped to about zero. A lot of this occurred when the G5 started outputting AP info. However, it costs quite a bit to properly calibrate the unit to your AP. 

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9 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

The more I talk about this the more I wish I had put the 660 in the panel next to the G5s to display traffic, weather, and synthetic vision with the gdl39 3D.    

It would not be legal via the STC. Since only the AI portion of the G5 AI is certified primary everything else needs to be kept in the same position. 

 

6 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

Does the G5 support some FDs now? 

I have a Century 41 dual que, I don’t believe the aspen supports a dual que. If the G5 can I will probably go that route. Although I’d prefer the Aspen.

Cheers,

Dan

The only FD it supports is the gfc500 FD. This is why the G5 cannot be used to replace the current FD AI on these aircraft. However, with dual g5’s And the 500 AP you are good to go. 

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