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Porpoising leads to gear collapse accident


kortopates

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22 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

BTW, how do you safely simulate porpoising?

I never do it from the backside of the power curve; too close to loss of aircraft control.  Most prop strikes come from coming in too fast, so that is the way I simulate them.  I come in 5-10 kts too fast with the descent rate too great and bounce the plane, then hand control over to the student to recover.  Please don't go out and practice this on your own.  From a lot of Mooney time I know what's recoverable and what is not.  In the Landing Video, I don't let the airplane porpoise, just bounce a lot and show how to recover from a bounced landing that could lead to a porpoise and prop strike.  There's no need to actually porpoise to show how to recover from a bounced landing that could lead to a porpoise.

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3 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Isn’t somebody doing great being a rental king in California?  Certainly the pittance of income and hassle of a “video” (mailing and collecting) vs. just putting it out on You Tube to help many and drum up customers makes more sense?

Just my perspective, but how much do people think something is worth if it is given for free?  Do attorneys and accounts give free advice?  It takes time, experience and often a lot of money in training to acquire knowledge that is valuable to people.

You're right, though, that I don't make much money selling my video after all the costs associated with producing it.  I deliberately sell it for less money than it should be selling for BECAUSE I want more people to benefit from it, but have some skin in the game to feel it is of value.

Being a landlord, which doesn't take much time now, allows me to devote nearly full time to my passion for flying and teaching, which I hope helps a lot of people.  

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6 hours ago, Piloto said:

The Mooney movable stabilator is a bigger surface than the elevator thus has more power to bring the nose up at low speed than the elevator. Using the trim keeps the joke from rubbing on my belly during flare. I found that on Mooneys with the Missile or Rocket conversion it helps to trim up on the flare.

José

Maybe you should do some cable rows and build up your biceps. My wife has no problem flaring the 201 regardless of CG or flap setting. Maybe I can make you a video or something.  Or maybe she can give you an hour of instruction.  I’ll ask. 

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6 hours ago, Piloto said:

The Mooney movable stabilator is a bigger surface than the elevator thus has more power to bring the nose up at low speed than the elevator. Using the trim keeps the joke from rubbing on my belly during flare. I found that on Mooneys with the Missile or Rocket conversion it helps to trim up on the flare.

José

Jose,

Are you saying that you have time in more than just one model of Mooney?  Have you ever damaged any of them with your technique?

Clarence

 

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14 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Just my perspective, but how much do people think something is worth if it is given for free?  Do attorneys and accounts give free advice?  It takes time, experience and often a lot of money in training to acquire knowledge that is valuable to people.

You're right, though, that I don't make much money selling my video after all the costs associated with producing it.  I deliberately sell it for less money than it should be selling for BECAUSE I want more people to benefit from it, but have some skin in the game to feel it is of value.

Being a landlord, which doesn't take much time now, allows me to devote nearly full time to my passion for flying and teaching, which I hope helps a lot of people.  

There is no argument that content has value and is expensive to create.  You should be paid for your efforts.  

Many attorneys and accountants offer free seminars that customers and prospects attend.  Many prospects become long term customers from these marketing events.  

Perhaps the best way for you to monetize your video is to properly brand it and upload it for free consumption online.   If it was branded to instruct viewers to contact you for training, it would be far more valuable to you - just my guess.

Thanks for your posts btw - they are always a interesting read.

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13 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Just my perspective, but how much do people think something is worth if it is given for free?  Do attorneys and accounts give free advice?  It takes time, experience and often a lot of money in training to acquire knowledge that is valuable to people.

You're right, though, that I don't make much money selling my video after all the costs associated with producing it.  I deliberately sell it for less money than it should be selling for BECAUSE I want more people to benefit from it, but have some skin in the game to feel it is of value.

Being a landlord, which doesn't take much time now, allows me to devote nearly full time to my passion for flying and teaching, which I hope helps a lot of people.  

From now on I’ll be charging one dollar for everyone of my posts, after all the things I’ve learned in 35 years of maintenance shouldn’t be free.  One dollar is a bargain compared to what it cost me to learn it.

I accept PayPal and most popular credit cards.

Clarence

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7 hours ago, Steve W said:

I can say that's one kind of flying I have no desire to ever do. When I go to Oshkosh I'm gonna be the guy who arrives a day or 2 or more early to miss all the traffic.

Don't knock it unless/until you've tried it. No one flies their own plane in formation without proper training and practice. But those who have flown in with us after arriving the other way, ALWAYS say the Caravan is the easiest and most relaxed way to arrive at Oshkosh.  And WAY easier than the Fisk.

 

7 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I hit Ripon at 7:15 am on Thursday and had the sky to myself.  

 

7 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The first few times we flew into KOSH back in the early 80s we arrived three or four days before the show started. The North 40 extended way farther east then into where the warbirds are now parked and we would be on the third or fourth row.  Anyway, to this day watching all of the arrivals in a lawnchair while monitoring ATC from the side of 09/27 is my absolute favorite part of the show.  

Jim

The Caravan will be arriving at Noon on Saturday this year. That will allow us to get a prime location for all of us in the N40. And to be there to sit and watch all the other arrivals on Saturday and Sunday.

It's like driving three abreast down a six lane freeway, that's been temporarily closed to all other traffic. There are only two turns and they are only about 20 degrees, so it's almost a straight shot. It's the Easy Button for flying to OSH.

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3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Everyone understands why you trim in the flare.  

What folks are saying is that it's a bad technique that could be dangerous if you had to do an actual go-around.

Understand your concern. But I have done several touch and go with this technique with no issue. The only difference is that you have to trim down and push the yoke as you get airborne. The trim motor is fast enough to bring the nose to climb attitude. I would not recommend this technique on planes with no electric trim. I found trimming up very helpful on grass and dirt strips, it keeps the nose wheel from digging into the ground.

José

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Ok... on the contrarian side here... I went out and did some IFR practice today. It was 500 to 800 OVC over the whole area today and it makes for good practice in Actual.

Having just read this thread yesterday, I thought I'd play around with it today. I do have electric trim obviously and often use it whenever I can easily relieve some pressure off the yoke. As I fly the approach, the plane is properly set up and flies the glide slope almost hands off. As I round off into ground effect I notice I'm not really "flaring" but just holding the plane off the runway as it slows. During this time while I'm holding it off, a couple of short touches on the trim switch just to relieve some (not all) of the back pressure on the yoke seems to be just fine and plenty safe. The pitch of the plane doesn't change at all and I'm still holding pressure on the yoke. 

So what's wrong with this?

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56 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Ok... on the contrarian side here... I went out and did some IFR practice today. It was 500 to 800 OVC over the whole area today and it makes for good practice in Actual.

Having just read this thread yesterday, I thought I'd play around with it today. I do have electric trim obviously and often use it whenever I can easily relieve some pressure off the yoke. As I fly the approach, the plane is properly set up and flies the glide slope almost hands off. As I round off into ground effect I notice I'm not really "flaring" but just holding the plane off the runway as it slows. During this time while I'm holding it off, a couple of short touches on the trim switch just to relieve some (not all) of the back pressure on the yoke seems to be just fine and plenty safe. The pitch of the plane doesn't change at all and I'm still holding pressure on the yoke. 

So what's wrong with this?

Nothing.

I've done over 4000 landings in Mooney's and every one of them was done with full nose up trim. 

Ive even done touch and goes without retrimming just to see if it is doable. And it is. You just need to know you have to push real hard.

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47 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

FWIW, full nose up trim isn’t what I am talking about, and I don’t think it is what Paul was talking about either. I’m talking about retrimming in the flair. I guess you don’t do that either if you are landing with full nose up trim. 

I usually trim nose up on short final after I reduce the power to idle.

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I always retract flaps as soon as all three wheels are firmly planted. I guess it's how we were taught. My CFI told me about other CFI's who disagreed with him but he didn't see any reason not to clean up the plane rolling out after landing. So that's the way I learned and what I practice. :)

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1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Nothing.

I've done over 4000 landings in Mooney's and every one of them was done with full nose up trim. 

Ive even done touch and goes without retrimming just to see if it is doable. And it is. You just need to know you have to push real hard.

Having to “push real hard” on a go-around to avoid a stall is an inherently unsafe condition. It requires you to do something unnatural to prevent a stall. Airplanes are designed to fly approach speed while trimmed and to require light and normal forces to correct the flight path or land, or go around.  By trimming it full up to avoid pulling the nose up in the the flare, you defeat this safe, stable condition.  Should you get startled and firewall it, say to prevent hitting a deer, or do a normal style go-around and your seat slides back, you now have an airplane trying to kill you.  

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23 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Come fly formation with the Mooney Caravan and learn how to make the smoothest landings ever... no flaps and 90 knots to the numbers.

Long (6000 ft min) runways required :ph34r:

You've mentioned this many times yet never elaborate as to why. The biggest fattest members of the breed stall at 59knots at MGW and I am certain no one is landing at Osh at max gross. So what's the benefit to landing (and I use that term loosely) at well over 1.4 X clean stall speed?  Moreover, I don't see how that "skill" is good for much more than say... well...flyin...I mean landing at 1.4 X clean stall speed. There's no special skill involved in rolling the wheels on with the airplane still flying, many folks do that as SOP out side of the formation flying clinic.  Why there's a nice Missile that just came up for sale that...

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57 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Having to “push real hard” on a go-around to avoid a stall is an inherently unsafe condition. It requires you to do something unnatural to prevent a stall. Airplanes are designed to fly approach speed while trimmed and to require light and normal forces to correct the flight path or land, or go around.  By trimming it full up to avoid pulling the nose up in the the flare, you defeat this safe, stable condition.  Should you get startled and firewall it, say to prevent hitting a deer, or do a normal style go-around and your seat slides back, you now have an airplane trying to kill you.  

Way unnatural, I wasn't trying to fly naturally I was trying to see if the plane was capable of flying at full power in the worst trim condition. It can. Would I recommend it, no. But it will fly that way.

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I think it’s good you validated it will go around with full nose up trim. It teaches you the airplane is flyable in a non-optimal configuration. Like teaching flaps up landings or teaching slips etc. 

 but your SOP is full up trim, which means the surprise hard push on the go-around. Which is an unsafe condition waiting to bite you in the rear. There is a reason airlines teach not to trim below Vref for landing or stall practice. So on the go-around the aircraft is approximately trimmed for V2. No hard push or, was it hard pull on this one?  Just firewall it and sort it out later. It’s designed to be easy to fly. 

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14 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I think it’s good you validated it will go around with full nose up trim. It teaches you the airplane is flyable in a non-optimal configuration. Like teaching flaps up landings or teaching slips etc. 

 but your SOP is full up trim, which means the surprise hard push on the go-around. Which is an unsafe condition waiting to bite you in the rear. There is a reason airlines teach not to trim below Vref for landing or stall practice. So on the go-around the aircraft is approximately trimmed for V2. No hard push or, was it hard pull on this one?  Just firewall it and sort it out later. It’s designed to be easy to fly. 

The push really isn't that bad it's a lot worse if you retract the flaps without re-trimming, but even then, it's not as bad as most would imagine.

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1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

You've mentioned this many times yet never elaborate as to why. The biggest fattest members of the breed stall at 59knots at MGW and I am certain no one is landing at Osh at max gross. So what's the benefit to landing (and I use that term loosely) at well over 1.4 X clean stall speed?  Moreover, I don't see how that "skill" is good for much more than say... well...flyin...I mean landing at 1.4 X clean stall speed. There's no special skill involved in rolling the wheels on with the airplane still flying, many folks do that as SOP out side of the formation flying clinic.  Why there's a nice Missile that just came up for sale that...

I'm no formation expert but form what I understand it's because you have a train of other planes behind you and if everyone slows down so much, the planes behind would catch up.

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2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You've mentioned this many times yet never elaborate as to why. The biggest fattest members of the breed stall at 59knots at MGW and I am certain no one is landing at Osh at max gross. So what's the benefit to landing (and I use that term loosely) at well over 1.4 X clean stall speed?  Moreover, I don't see how that "skill" is good for much more than say... well...flyin...I mean landing at 1.4 X clean stall speed. There's no special skill involved in rolling the wheels on with the airplane still flying, many folks do that as SOP out side of the formation flying clinic.  Why there's a nice Missile that just came up for sale that...

If you really want to know the Pitch/Power relationship, the camaraderie of many like minded people, precision much greater than that required of the Instrument Rating, then acquiring the skill to fly formation should be on your agenda.  One hour of formation flying is like 4 hours of hand flying alongside  the most demanding instructor you have ever had.  Bring a large towel to wipe the sweat from your brow when a practice flight is over and debriefed.  Leave your ego at the door.

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25 minutes ago, donkaye said:

If you really want to know the Pitch/Power relationship, the camaraderie of many like minded people, precision much greater than that required of the Instrument Rating, then acquiring the skill to fly formation should be on your agenda.  One hour of formation flying is like 4 hours of hand flying alongside  the most demanding instructor you have ever had.  Bring a large towel to wipe the sweat from your brow when a practice flight is over and debriefed.  Leave your ego at the door.

Valid.  

Formation flight is the third pillar of flight of the “trifecta.”  Visual flight (using the earth as your attitude reference), instrument flight (using your instruments/gyros as your attitude reference)...,. And formation flight: using another aircraft as your attitude reference.

like any other skill in aviation- experience and dedication result in competency and capability.  It gets to be quite fun.  Although flying through hard IFR with nothing but a wing tip light to stare at and fly off of can be harrowing.  After 15 or so years instructing young pilots to fly form, i can say it’s just like teaching any other facet of aviation- the best results come from realizing that the key is remaining humble, approachable, and credible.

Only two things have caused more sustained stress on my life (outside of combat missions)... aerial refueling, and landing on a boat.  If I ever have to do either of those things in a Mooney, I’m having a very interesting day! 

Edit.  I have not participated in any Mooney form clinics yet, although one of my coworkers and I fly formation in our planes from time to time- he has a V35, me in the missile.  It’s hard to fly off such a slow airplane... I recommend staying Mooney/Mooney ;)

Edited by M016576
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5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Way unnatural, I wasn't trying to fly naturally I was trying to see if the plane was capable of flying at full power in the worst trim condition. It can. Would I recommend it, no. But it will fly that way.

I thought that it was quite clear from your post, proof that it is possible.

Clarence

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7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

but your SOP is full up trim, which means the surprise hard push on the go-around. 

It is no surprise. I fully expect it. I can deal with it with no thought what so ever.

Do Mooneys and Boeings fly differently? Yes. I tried to land a 737 sim the same way I land a Mooney. It touched down very smoothly about a mile beyond the end of the runway. I've never had to push the nose wheel down after landing in the Mooney. 

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12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Don't knock it unless/until you've tried it. No one flies their own plane in formation without proper training and practice. But those who have flown in with us after arriving the other way, ALWAYS say the Caravan is the easiest and most relaxed way to arrive at Oshkosh.  And WAY easier than the Fisk.

 

 

The Caravan will be arriving at Noon on Saturday this year. That will allow us to get a prime location for all of us in the N40. And to be there to sit and watch all the other arrivals on Saturday and Sunday.

It's like driving three abreast down a six lane freeway, that's been temporarily closed to all other traffic. There are only two turns and they are only about 20 degrees, so it's almost a straight shot. It's the Easy Button for flying to OSH.

And I’ll add that I learned more about flying my mooney precisely in doing the two days of formation clinic than in about 500 hrs of tooling around ... it’s time really well spent. 

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12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

<snip>

The Caravan will be arriving at Noon on Saturday this year. That will allow us to get a prime location for all of us in the N40. And to be there to sit and watch all the other arrivals on Saturday and Sunday.

<snip>

Paul, @gsxrpilot, I had not heard that the change, which I like, was final... (The MooneyCaravan website does not show 2018 schedule yet.)

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