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Mooney N94MR- Paint Project


mooneyman

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6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

You can acclimate to 5,000 ft.  You can acclimate to 7,000.  And then climb better to 12 or 14.  But you need to be born and raised at 17 if you want to climb in the 20's,  And even so, only very few people have successfully climbed Everest, 29,000 without oxygen.

My understanding is that we can acclimatize to just under 18000', but above that we're in the death zone since we're in a state of slowly dying till we get back down. Of course Sherpa have proven to do exceptionally well at altitude since as you say they were born and raised at higher than any one else. But we all adapt to altitude in differing degrees. And naturally high altitude mountaineering has favored those that are well adapted to altitude. My wife and I are both long time climbers, and she did quite well at altitude having summitted some rather technical ice routes to just under 23000' including South America's highest peak Aconcagua (22837') - all without Oxygen or being guided. For real climbers, climbing is all about the challenge and style by which you get to the top, not just getting to the summit but the style in which you got there. Purist consider use of aides like O2 as cheating. For them O2 is only for emergency use to get down . Taking Everest as an example, Oxygen was considered essential to survive and it was widely believed it would be impossible to survive without it. Also at the same time summitting a mountain like Everest required siege tactics with lots of people and sherpas that ferried supplies higher and higher till the summit was in reach for a small well stocked party from a high camp. The same siege tactics were used originally to climb El Capitain sheer rock face in Yosemite and many other first ascents of tall rock faces. But the tactics were never endorsed by the climbing world as a whole with many believing such ascents should wait till they can be first climbed in good style. Then in the 70's, the game was turned upside down when gifted and purist climbers  Reinhold Messner and Peter Habeler, whom had been making very quick and light ascents of the major Alps climbs, applied the same fast and light tactics to big mountains, a style referred to as Apline Style in contrast to Siege or Expedition style, and went on to climb Everest in '78 and K2 in '79 without O2. He even went back to climb Everest solo in '80 without O2. Reinhold became the first to climb all fourteen 8000 meter peaks without O2, mostly all alpine style in small parties; through the 1980's. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_Messner)

Over the following decades climbers, (real climbers that spent decades of working up through increasingly challenging climbs), continued to climb the high peaks without O2 until Everest had been climbed by a few hundred climbers and many paid the price trying as well. (http://adventureblog.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/21/how-climbing-everest-without-oxygen-can-go-very-wrong/)  But all of that changed, not really out of safety, but commercial climbing came into being to capitalize on a growing number of wealthy and essentially want to be climbers that had the cash to pay the ~$30K to be guided up Everest's rather non technical route with O2 to greatly improve odds of success. Of course getting up Everest by any means  other than helicopter is a huge challenge, but being guided with O2 up a mountain is only fraction of the challenge taken on by a small team of climber that are all sharing in the leading up the mountain. 

But during those years of ascents without oxygen, we learned a lot of about our ability to survive and adapt without O2 as well as the issues that accompany O2 deprivation or hypoxia and a lot of myths were squashed. One popular one you still hear in the pilot community is that as you get older your ability to function without O2 decreases. Yet the climbing community demonstrated that high altitude climbers were actually improving with age to some point in near middle age compared to younger 20's that proved to be less tolerant. Judging by the number of climbers we still have doing it in their 50's and even 60's, its appear to not drastically decline off in later years either.

I never did any of the high altitude mountains with my wife. I learned early on my thing was rock climbing and rock'aneering. I climbed all the major walls in Yosemite valley in the 80's (El Capitan, Half Dome etc). My highest rock wall was Mt Whitney's vertical to overhanging Keeler Needle climbed in a day (13 pitches (rope lengths) at over 14000'; not very high but plenty high enough to feel hypoxic when working really hard.

Back to drying paint ..... which  is looking very nice!

Edited by kortopates
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The paint looks AWESOME!!!!

I was wondering if you could get into a little detail about why you picked the shop, what you were looking for and what things you would change? And not change in a bad way but things that would have made things go easier or faster.

I have a few friends that are high end automotive painters. One guy has painted a few Lakers cars and I’ve bent their ears a few times about airplane paint. They say the types of paint most shops are using are archaic compared to the newer automotive paints. They last longer and the clean up is much safer. They don’t fade as bad and resist defects. I guess it means a less experienced painter can make it look good, but I think that makes an expert painter look perfect.

I was wondering what type of paint you used?




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45 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

The OP shared the cost with me. Probably a little higher than most the CB would pay on this site. First class quality IMO!

 I’m still going to fly over and look at the shop. @mooneyman is the R still over there?

It's still there!  Definitely, go check it out!   

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1 hour ago, xcrmckenna said:

The paint looks AWESOME!!!!

I was wondering if you could get into a little detail about why you picked the shop, what you were looking for and what things you would change? And not change in a bad way but things that would have made things go easier or faster.

I have a few friends that are high end automotive painters. One guy has painted a few Lakers cars and I’ve bent their ears a few times about airplane paint. They say the types of paint most shops are using are archaic compared to the newer automotive paints. They last longer and the clean up is much safer. They don’t fade as bad and resist defects. I guess it means a less experienced painter can make it look good, but I think that makes an expert painter look perfect.

I was wondering what type of paint you used?

I have experience with two other well regarded midwest paint shops. One of the shops did good work at a good price. The other shop did excellent quality work at a higher price, albeit very slowly. When I decided to have this plane repainted, I considered both of these shops, but also decided to research some other options.

Priority #1 was finding a shop that I could TRUST. I got several referrals/ suggestions from friends to check out Flying Colors Aviation. When I called them, Ken Kaminski (owner) spent about 40 minutes on the phone with me explaining their process and philosphy. He also expressed a great appreciation for Mooneys and detailed his history with them. He suggested I fly up for a visit. I did and he gave me a tour of their facilities and several planes going through the process. What I saw was a clean, well staffed, professional facility. I was amazed at the attention to detail they gave every plane whether turbine, piston, or warbird. They are not the cheapest option, but I plan on keeping this plane for a while. I placed my deposit in March 2017 and dropped the plane off in January 2018. We are currently in week 5 and they appear to be on schedule. Ken estimated 5-6 weeks for the job.

It's interesting that you mention automotive paint because that's what Ken uses at Flying Colors. I knew that I wanted metallic silver as base with some red graphics. Instead of looking at Sherwin-Williams Jet Glo sample charts, he told me to visit various automotive websites and find some colors that I liked. The shade of red that we picked is from Porsche and the silver is from Mercedes. I agree that it looks awesome! Can't wait to see it in person!

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8 hours ago, Kris_Adams said:

As will I.  As far as I'm concerned I see 10 other toyota trucks that look just like mine every day (if not more).  I don't care if mine is close to someone else's ( @jetdriven) that lives across the country. Hopefully they won't care either!

I was amazed at a previous thread about paint job similarities. Yea, a little snarky. I know folks pay and get paid for designing paint schemes, but these things get out of hand sometimes. I think the metallic schemes are really good looking. This plane will attract a lot of attention where ever it goes. 

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I have experience with two other well regarded midwest paint shops. One of the shops did good work at a good price. The other shop did excellent quality work at a higher price, albeit very slowly. When I decided to have this plane repainted, I considered both of these shops, but also decided to research some other options.
Priority #1 was finding a shop that I could TRUST. I got several referrals/ suggestions from friends to check out Flying Colors Aviation. When I called them, Ken Kaminski (owner) spent about 40 minutes on the phone with me explaining their process and philosphy. He also expressed a great appreciation for Mooneys and detailed his history with them. He suggested I fly up for a visit. I did and he gave me a tour of their facilities and several planes going through the process. What I saw was a clean, well staffed, professional facility. I was amazed at the attention to detail they gave every plane whether turbine, piston, or warbird. They are not the cheapest option, but I plan on keeping this plane for a while. I placed my deposit in March 2017 and dropped the plane off in January 2018. We are currently in week 5 and they appear to be on schedule. Ken estimated 5-6 weeks for the job.
It's interesting that you mention automotive paint because that's what Ken uses at Flying Colors. I knew that I wanted metallic silver as base with some red graphics. Instead of looking at Sherwin-Williams Jet Glo sample charts, he told me to visit various automotive websites and find some colors that I liked. The shade of red that we picked is from Porsche and the silver is from Mercedes. I agree that it looks awesome! Can't wait to see it in person!

That is great, maybe when the time comes for me maybe I can bend your ear a little more on the process. And if I ever get a chance to meet your plane I will look forward to it as well. Thank you.


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18 hours ago, wcb said:

+1

That looks amazing.

Would you mind sharing with us what he's charging for a paint job like this?

I have a 1997 M20J that could really benefit from a good paint job. Can you share the cost, please. Also what kind, and to what level, of body work was involved in the price?

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On 2/21/2018 at 3:59 PM, mooneyman said:

It's interesting that you mention automotive paint because that's what Ken uses at Flying Colors. I knew that I wanted metallic silver as base with some red graphics. Instead of looking at Sherwin-Williams Jet Glo sample charts, he told me to visit various automotive websites and find some colors that I liked. The shade of red that we picked is from Porsche and the silver is from Mercedes. I agree that it looks awesome! Can't wait to see it in person!

I agree that automotive paint is superior technology to single stage urethane. Iv'e shot a bunch of it, I prefer PPG myself.  I think the difference is in the execution. With basecoat, it dries very fast and you must keep a wet edge, so it takes two guys who know where they're going and do it fast to get it right. Then the recoat window with clearcoat, typically its 24hr, or the base must be scuffed. You can't scuff a metallic because the last coat is a mist coat to give it the sparkly effect. Sanding this kills it. But it is very difficult to lay down basecoat, say at 9AM, wait until the afternoon to layout the stripes, get all those shot before 5, then come in and get all the clear on by 9AM the next day. A large crew can do it I think, but I dont think most shops get the recoat window. It leaves the shop and looks fine, but its not durable, because its not chemically bonded to the basecoat.  And the materials, Omni and nason look fine, are cheap, and in fact I use it often for small parts, inspection panels, engine mounts, fairings, gear doors etc.  Believe me it all looks the same coming out of the paint booth.  But for a whole plane you want something like PPG Deltron DBC basecoat and their DCU2002 high solids clear. This stuff is the best you can buy and you could park a black and red airplane outside for ten years and it would still look great. But a plane like the M20J you're looking at a similar cost for basecoat as for Imron, around 1-2K depending on color, but the clear is extra and at 350$ a gallon ready to spray, 2-3 gallons will do the job.

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3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I agree that automotive paint is superior technology to single stage urethane. Iv'e shot a bunch of it, I prefer PPG myself.  I think the difference is in the execution. With basecoat, it dries very fast and you must keep a wet edge, so it takes two guys who know where they're going and do it fast to get it right. Then the recoat window with clearcoat, typically its 24hr, or the base must be scuffed. You can't scuff a metallic because the last coat is a mist coat to give it the sparkly effect. Sanding this kills it. But it is very difficult to lay down basecoat, say at 9AM, wait until the afternoon to layout the stripes, get all those shot before 5, then come in and get all the clear on by 9AM the next day. A large crew can do it I think, but I dont think most shops get the recoat window. It leaves the shop and looks fine, but its not durable, because its not chemically bonded to the basecoat.  And the materials, Omni and nason look fine, are cheap, and in fact I use it often for small parts, inspection panels, engine mounts, fairings, gear doors etc.  Believe me it all looks the same coming out of the paint booth.  But for a whole plane you want something like PPG Deltron DBC basecoat and their DCU2002 high solids clear. This stuff is the best you can buy and you could park a black and red airplane outside for ten years and it would still look great. But a plane like the M20J you're looking at a similar cost for basecoat as for Imron, around 1-2K depending on color, but the clear is extra and at 350$ a gallon ready to spray, 2-3 gallons will do the job.

Byron,

I'm not really very familiar with automotive or aircraft paint. But I was of the opinion that aircraft paints were more expensive than automotive. Is that factual? Is there any downside to using automotive paint on a plane? If automotive paints are superior, why are the aircraft paint facilities still using aircraft products? Or do they? 

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4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I agree that automotive paint is superior technology to single stage urethane. Iv'e shot a bunch of it, I prefer PPG myself.  I think the difference is in the execution. With basecoat, it dries very fast and you must keep a wet edge, so it takes two guys who know where they're going and do it fast to get it right. Then the recoat window with clearcoat, typically its 24hr, or the base must be scuffed. You can't scuff a metallic because the last coat is a mist coat to give it the sparkly effect. Sanding this kills it. But it is very difficult to lay down basecoat, say at 9AM, wait until the afternoon to layout the stripes, get all those shot before 5, then come in and get all the clear on by 9AM the next day. A large crew can do it I think, but I dont think most shops get the recoat window. It leaves the shop and looks fine, but its not durable, because its not chemically bonded to the basecoat.  And the materials, Omni and nason look fine, are cheap, and in fact I use it often for small parts, inspection panels, engine mounts, fairings, gear doors etc.  Believe me it all looks the same coming out of the paint booth.  But for a whole plane you want something like PPG Deltron DBC basecoat and their DCU2002 high solids clear. This stuff is the best you can buy and you could park a black and red airplane outside for ten years and it would still look great. But a plane like the M20J you're looking at a similar cost for basecoat as for Imron, around 1-2K depending on color, but the clear is extra and at 350$ a gallon ready to spray, 2-3 gallons will do the job.

I thought the deal with factory auto paint was that it was painted on in booths and then baked on.  Making it not reasonable for aircraft repainting shops.

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