Chicago Demo Flight/CFII?

[DakotaFlyer]

Hello all,

Apologies in advance if some of this has been covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything relevant via searching.  I am currently considering the purchase of a plane to support an impending move this summer to South Dakota while still enabling efficient work travel east of the Rockies ~3 days per week.  I've come across a Ovation2 with FIKI and G1000 (http://www.airmart.com/aircraft-for-sale/114/mooney/n322pm-2005-mooney-m20r-ovation-2-gx/n322pm) that seems to fit the bill for what I'm looking for.  That said, I've never flown a Mooney before and am a bit cautious given the step up from my recent history in C172/C182 steam aircraft.  That said, I do have my comm/multi/instru and have about 400 hours TT and 50 hours complex.

First, does anyone know of someone with an Ovation in the Chicago area that I could get a test flight in?

Second, is there a rental G1000 Mooney/CFII that could help me complete transition training over a multi-day period? I'd be willing to travel in the 48 states for this.

Third, my other option under consideration is a FIKI SR22 (G3 or G5), but the additional maintenance, acquisition cost, etc., isn't as attractive.  However, what is attractive is the formalized training program, availability of rental aircraft and CSIP instructors, more qualified service centers, etc., plus a more capable avionics platform.  That said, either the SR22 and M20R would fit my mission profile of ~2 pax and ~700 mile legs. I know this is a Mooney forum, but does anyone disagree with the thought process?  Honestly, the incremental speed of the M20R in cruise isn't that relevant to me, but the lower Vs/Vso compared to the SR22 very much is (though what I've read of the M20R's landing characteristics has me concerned given the SR22 has issues there as well).

Appreciate thoughts and advice in advance. Not trying to start a M vs C debate... both are nice and are targeting different segments of the GA space, so no reason to go there.

Ted

[N9201A]

Each is a different answer to the same question. Try them both. Pick the type that speaks to you.

Ignore the old wives’ tales about “hard to land” and other nonsense. Find a type-experienced CFI who will show you why they’re nonsense, and really learn how to fly your choice.

[DakotaFlyer]

Thanks - that's why I'm on here looking for a Mooney to fly around Chicago... SR22s are easy to find/rent... Mooneys not so much.

[PaulM]

That Ovation is the brother to my Bravo.. same paint scheme.

The question on that plane is, does it have the GIA63W WAAS upgrade?(I doubt it).. that is $25K  and with a GTX345 added makes $30K to meet the ADSB 2020 requirement.  The airframe should be priced accordingly, and that price seems high for not having those updates and for those hours.. 

400 hours + 50 retract will have no problem transitioning to a Mooney.    Fly them both, pick the one you like.  I had not flown a J model for 10+ years. after getting back into flying  I flew a SR22T, and was "meh"    I flew a bravo and then  found mine, when picking it up "I was back home"  

2 years ago i gave my friend a ride, he was thinking of a Bonanza, etc... He flew a Gulfstream IV at that time, and was transitioning to the 747-800... a couple of months later he bought a Mooney C model. 

 

[DakotaFlyer]

Thanks Paul. That's really helpful.   Appreciate the insight.

Ted

[Oldguy]

To find a CFI, go to themooneyflyer.com and look in the last few pages of the current magazine. There should be a listing by state.

N9021A is correct about the landing speeds - get it right and it is simple, but for every 1 kt. fast, expect ~100' of float.

MAPASafety.com is the foundation that provides recurrent training for Mooney pilots with their PPP. They hold them several times a year around the country. You also get an IPC and FR (BFR) out of it.

Best of luck on your hunt!

[DakotaFlyer]

Thanks! Appreciate the lead on mooneyflyer.  Quick follow up, would training on a M20J be materially different than on a M20R? Most of the instructors teach in J's, which I'm sure would be helpful, but would prefer to train in something similar to what I'd buy.

[Oldguy]

Quick answer for that would be from @donkaye or @mike_elliott. Probably some pilot of every model has been trained by one of those guys.

Stand by for a reply from one of them.....

[mike_elliott]

While there are a lot of similarities and characteristics to how they fly, IE the laminar flow wing giving up completely at stall, the feel of a Long body vs mid body is different. There are many subtleties that need to be gone over for each model, like hot starts that differ, systems that are completely different, sight picture, etc. It takes an experienced J owner just about as long as it does a C182 pilot to get the feel for a long body on short final on average. Climb out in a J  lets just say is different than in a 310 HP O3. While you can learn a lot renting a J and getting instruction in it from a quality guy like Don Kaye or Paul Kortopates, get ready to spend some time once you get an Ovation with a quality guy like Don Kaye or Paul Kortopates in the Ovation. If you work with any of us, get ready to spend some time with your nose in the POH.

[midlifeflyer]

33 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

While there are a lot of similarities and characteristics to how they fly, IE the laminar flow wing giving up completely at stall, the feel of a Long body vs mid body is different. There are many subtleties that need to be gone over for each model, like hot starts that differ, systems that are completely different, sight picture, etc. It takes an experienced J owner just about as long as it does a C182 pilot to get the feel for a long body on short final on average. Climb out in a J  lets just say is different than in a 310 HP O3. While you can learn a lot renting a J and getting instruction in it from a quality guy like Don Kaye or Paul Kortopates, get ready to spend some time once you get an Ovation with a quality guy like Don Kaye or Paul Kortopates in the Ovation. If you work with any of us, get ready to spend some time with your nose in the POH.

Having fairly recently transitioned to an Ovation, from a J,  this post is  very much on target. 

[donkaye]

59 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Quick answer for that would be from @donkaye or @mike_elliott. Probably some pilot of every model has been trained by one of those guys.

Stand by for a reply from one of them.....

From my experience, if you get your training in a J model, expect to spend the same amount of time transitioning to the R model.  There is a significant difference in the way they handle.   I expect to be in the Chicago area in early March working with a student who has an Acclaim there.  Maybe he can give you a ride.  That airplane handles the same as the Ovation, since it is an Ovation with twin turbochargers.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Yes the Ovation has its own character & systems differences.  My insurer didn’t require transition training when I bought the R because I had 1,300 Mooney hours in C and E model.  

That was over-confidence on their part.  

 

 

[L. Trotter]

On 2/6/2018 at 2:37 PM, PaulM said:

That Ovation is the brother to my Bravo.. same paint scheme.

The question on that plane is, does it have the GIA63W WAAS upgrade?(I doubt it).. that is $25K  and with a GTX345 added makes $30K to meet the ADSB 2020 requirement.  The airframe should be priced accordingly, and that price seems high for not having those updates and for those hours.. 

400 hours + 50 retract will have no problem transitioning to a Mooney.    Fly them both, pick the one you like.  I had not flown a J model for 10+ years. after getting back into flying  I flew a SR22T, and was "meh"    I flew a bravo and then  found mine, when picking it up "I was back home"  

2 years ago i gave my friend a ride, he was thinking of a Bonanza, etc... He flew a Gulfstream IV at that time, and was transitioning to the 747-800... a couple of months later he bought a Mooney C model. 

 

I just updated my non-WAAS G1000 to be ADS-B compliant. Cost total cost of install was $6,250 for the GTX345R with bluetooth. The WAAS GPS antenna included. Originally it was felt that a total G1000 WAAS upgrade was needed for the ADS-B compliance.....Not so. 

Although it would be nice to have full WAAS GPS receivers, I do not find any practical limitation in approaches. The difference in MDA/DA for the nonWAAS is typically only 100-200 ft. if needed I just use the ILS if weather is that low. Don't let the nonWAAS issue be a deal breaker.

[exM20K]

On 2/6/2018 at 12:07 PM, DakotaFlyer said:

Hello all,

Apologies in advance if some of this has been covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything relevant via searching.  I am currently considering the purchase of a plane to support an impending move this summer to South Dakota while still enabling efficient work travel east of the Rockies ~3 days per week.  I've come across a Ovation2 with FIKI and G1000 (http://www.airmart.com/aircraft-for-sale/114/mooney/n322pm-2005-mooney-m20r-ovation-2-gx/n322pm) that seems to fit the bill for what I'm looking for.  That said, I've never flown a Mooney before and am a bit cautious given the step up from my recent history in C172/C182 steam aircraft.  That said, I do have my comm/multi/instru and have about 400 hours TT and 50 hours complex.

First, does anyone know of someone with an Ovation in the Chicago area that I could get a test flight in?

Second, is there a rental G1000 Mooney/CFII that could help me complete transition training over a multi-day period? I'd be willing to travel in the 48 states for this.

Third, my other option under consideration is a FIKI SR22 (G3 or G5), but the additional maintenance, acquisition cost, etc., isn't as attractive.  However, what is attractive is the formalized training program, availability of rental aircraft and CSIP instructors, more qualified service centers, etc., plus a more capable avionics platform.  That said, either the SR22 and M20R would fit my mission profile of ~2 pax and ~700 mile legs. I know this is a Mooney forum, but does anyone disagree with the thought process?  Honestly, the incremental speed of the M20R in cruise isn't that relevant to me, but the lower Vs/Vso compared to the SR22 very much is (though what I've read of the M20R's landing characteristics has me concerned given the SR22 has issues there as well).

Appreciate thoughts and advice in advance. Not trying to start a M vs C debate... both are nice and are targeting different segments of the GA space, so no reason to go there.

Ted

Reasons to prefer the SR22: 

• Often better useful load
• Interior is larger and better-appointed

Reasons to prefer M20R:

• Faster
• Enjoyable to hand fly
• Not dorky

there is a case to be made that G500 / GNS750 is a better package than G1000.  This is an option for M20R but not SR22.

 

The customer support community for the Mooney is a bit more ad-hoc than the formalized one for Cirrus, but it works.  Don , Ted, MAPASF etc do a good job delivering training.  In Chicago, look up Bob Werderich, who owns Illinois Aviation Academy at KDPA.  he has M20R time.  

If it ever stops snowing, drop me a PM.  I keep an 310HP AcclaimS at Naper Aero.

-dan

Edited February 9, 2018 by exM20K

[M20F]

I think Dan gives some good advice but it really boils down to mission.  SD flying without FIKI is going to be limited for a lot of the year.  If you are just flying around the state then a SR22 or Ovation is overkill.  What’s the mission?

[DakotaFlyer]

Thanks all for the insights above. To help bring this story to a conclusion, I'm under contract on an Ovation (https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/25896481/2007-mooney-m20r-ovation-3-gx) pending pre-buy with Brian at San Marcos.  I almost (like completed transition training and everything) ended up in a SR22T, but ultimately my mission profile won out and I realized the significant cost difference in operating the SR22 (T or no T) is overkill for what I need to do.  That said, I sure thought hard about an Acclaim... but I ended up back at the same operational cost concerns.  To fly from Sioux Falls to Minneapolis/Chicago/Denver/Nashville, you just don't need the turbo or the associated maintenance/FF increase.  Hope to meet some of you at a future MAPA event.

[Txbyker]

@DakotaFlyer what a beauty. GFC700 and WAAS a very nice package.  I think I read that Brian is doing the pre buy.  He’ll find things no doubt.  Look for Amsafe updates, no back spring, etc.  Some of those things get overlooked by sellers.  Hopefully the compressions are good.  Seems like it has been flown some so thats good too.

Russ

[DakotaFlyer]

Thanks Russ -- yes, the WAAS, GFC700, FIKI combination is what I was looking for in an Ovation and this checked all of the boxes.  That said, I'm eagerly awaiting Brian's report card to confirm all is as it should be.

[carusoam]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mooney flying, Dakota!   

The O makes a great traveling machine.

Continue with as much training and experience as you can get (not a Mooney issue as much as a human issue).  MAPA is a great resource.

Tell us about your transition training as you go.  It is interesting to see and hear other people’s experience...

Post some pics...

Best regards,

-a-

[DakotaFlyer]

As an update here, my prior purchase fell apart so I'm back in the market for an Ovation with G1000 and FIKI, but am opening up to the idea of a STEC55x instead of the GFC700 (and potentially foregoing WAAS if I can't find an upgrade kit lying around...). if anyone knows of one for sale, or may be for sale in the near future, I'd appreciate the heads up.  I'm a cash buyer and can move quickly.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Don't worry about renting a Mooney to do your transition training.  If you like the Mooney after a test flight, buy it and do your transition training in that.

[daytonabch04]

3 hours ago, DakotaFlyer said:

As an update here, my prior purchase fell apart so I'm back in the market for an Ovation with G1000 and FIKI, but am opening up to the idea of a STEC55x instead of the GFC700 (and potentially foregoing WAAS if I can't find an upgrade kit lying around...). if anyone knows of one for sale, or may be for sale in the near future, I'd appreciate the heads up.  I'm a cash buyer and can move quickly.

Did it fall apart due to maintenance/pre-buy?  Potentially going thru the same steps now with pending pre-buy very soon..

[Chris K]

6 hours ago, DakotaFlyer said:

As an update here, my prior purchase fell apart so I'm back in the market for an Ovation with G1000 and FIKI, but am opening up to the idea of a STEC55x instead of the GFC700 (and potentially foregoing WAAS if I can't find an upgrade kit lying around...). if anyone knows of one for sale, or may be for sale in the near future, I'd appreciate the heads up.  I'm a cash buyer and can move quickly.

I just purchased an Eagle in early July.  It took me about 8 months to find the right plane so be patient.  If you need help finding a plane, I can recommend a good dealer - the market for nice Ovations has been a bit thin recently, so using a dealer helps in this market.

By the way, I'm in the Chicago area and you are welcome to come along on a flight if you are still looking to see how the plane handles.

[DakotaFlyer]

Sorry - it's not my place to publicly air our disagreement

[DakotaFlyer]

15 minutes ago, Chris K said:

I just purchased an Eagle in early July.  It took me about 8 months to find the right plane so be patient.  If you need help finding a plane, I can recommend a good dealer - the market for nice Ovations has been a bit thin recently, so using a dealer helps in this market.

By the way, I'm in the Chicago area and you are welcome to come along on a flight if you are still looking to see how the plane handles.

Chris - that would be awesome! I will actually be back in town on Sept. 4-7 if you're around.