jesse Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Hi Everyone, Apologies if this is the wrong place to post, but I've been lurking for a bit and am considering my first purchase (currently around 200TT, IR, working on hours for CPL). I'm hoping to find something relatively quick and IFR-equipped, and stumbled across this guy yesterday: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2287812&s-type=aircraft Other than the 430 not having WAAS and the inevitable ADSB upgrade, it looks like a pretty great deal? The damage was apparently a gear-up landing 8 years ago but it's been flying since then. But you guys know a ton more about these planes than I do... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Welcome aboard, Jesse... are you familiar with all the hours that were being represented in the ad? The C is a great plane. 40 amu is higher than the average price for a C. An M20C can go 2000 hrs TBO. This one seems to be close already... expect an overhaul to cost near 20amu... are you ready to own a 60amu M20C? How far away are you from it? Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Thanks for the quick reply! That was actually one question I left out - I see that the top is 600 from overhaul, but I guess that really doesn't help me if the engine is making metal towards the bottom.... Is my best bet looking on here for better C's? Ideally I would love at least a 430W but everything on all the standard sites seems very pricey. Looking for $40k with at least 500 hours left on the engine, but not sure if that's impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Your best bet is to know yourself as good as you can... I was young, bought a C, with a half time engine...and used it for a decade... flying 100 hours each year.. Its Loran went unusable... and other things happen that cost an amu every now and then... My common flight was 200nm done a few times per month. 400nm round trip... I lived the life of a CB... minimal excess dough to spend on Aviation.... Each year, I was very involved in its maintenance. Are you familiar with things like a PPI and Transition Training? What is your plan? If you were asking about Mooneys for sale on MS... many of the planes are known entities, like their owners... For Best results, buy a plane that has been flying regularly, by somebody that is touch with the Mooney community... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 26 minutes ago, jesse said: Thanks for the quick reply! That was actually one question I left out - I see that the top is 600 from overhaul, but I guess that really doesn't help me if the engine is making metal towards the bottom.... Is my best bet looking on here for better C's? Ideally I would love at least a 430W but everything on all the standard sites seems very pricey. Looking for $40k with at least 500 hours left on the engine, but not sure if that's impossible. everybody here will tell you engine time is a crapshoot. Higher percentages of failures shortly after OH and late in the game (nearing TBO and beyond). Buying a 500 SMOH engine is no guarantee that you will get another 1500 hours. You have to look a plane over carefully, and even then, there is some luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 In general, Mooneyspace tends to be pretty hard on "prospective buys" since we have all experienced finding that the plane we bought was not quite as perfect as we had imagined. We tend to pick apart every plane. Having said that, I would not venture a guess as to whether this is a good buy, or not. However, some questions you might ask the seller: 1. Have the tanks been re-sealed recently. If so, when and by whom? Is there any sign of leakage when full? 2. What is the hangar history of the plane. Has it been hangared since last painted? What is the location history of the plane? Has it been in a salt-air environment? Has SB 208 been done recently? 3. Does the prop require the eddy current inspection, or is it a 'B' hub? Since the engine is close to TBO, you can negotiate as if the engine is run-out, but in all truth, the engine may, or may not have a lot of hours left in it under part 91 operation. This is actually a good situation if you can get the seller to discount as if run-out. You get to run the engine "on condition" until it requires overhaul, then you have the option of a fresh overhaul, new, or re-man engine. I would not spend too much energy worrying about the gear-up damage that long ago. Gear up damage is common and, as long as properly repaired, is really not consequential. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 As MM stated the 208sb being done, on the same vain a strong look,for corrosion by an expert as part of your PPI. Cosmetically it's a beautiful plane, if the ppi checks out also a borescope and hopefully oil samples should help with the health of her engine. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKlott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Here is some info pertaining to 1968 Mooney Rangers (M20C): Rangers and Mark 21s are almost the same aircraft, but are made in different years. Slight differences give the Mark 21 a slight edge in cruise speed. For instance, the Ranger doesn’t have a retractable step, movable cowl flaps or dorsal fin of the 21s. Also, the later Rangers didn’t have the flush riveted underwing. Though these are small items, they add up to 4-6 mph slower cruise speeds. Mark 21s from 1965 and later and all Rangers have 52-gallon fuel tanks, enough for almost a half-hour more cruise over the 48-gallon ’61-64 Mark 21s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 5 hours ago, jesse said: Hi Everyone, Apologies if this is the wrong place to post, but I've been lurking for a bit and am considering my first purchase (currently around 200TT, IR, working on hours for CPL). I'm hoping to find something relatively quick and IFR-equipped, and stumbled across this guy yesterday: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2287812&s-type=aircraft Other than the 430 not having WAAS and the inevitable ADSB upgrade, it looks like a pretty great deal? The damage was apparently a gear-up landing 8 years ago but it's been flying since then. But you guys know a ton more about these planes than I do... Thanks! For comparison: I recently bought my 1964 C model for $40k, also in VA, I got: Frame-off restoration in 2007 (wing removed, entire structure cleaned, re-painted, and treated with corrosion-x after re-assembly) Freshly sealed tanks (have to check the logs for an exact date, but at least once since restoration) Engine overhauled in 2007 during restore, 220 SMOH at time of purchase All recurring AD's complied with, most permanently by parts replacement (including the prop hub, no 100hr teardown required) Standard GNS430 GTN 327 transponder GMA 340 audio Narco ELT If you need a recommendation on a pre-buy inspector, I can give you a name/number to reach out to. The fella who did mine operates out of Shannon (EZF), and he was exceedingly professional, as well as a wealth of useful knowledge, and he permitted me to participate in the inspection. (He was so good that i'll be bringing him the plane again in April when Annual is due) 23 minutes ago, BKlott said: Here is some info pertaining to 1968 Mooney Rangers (M20C): Rangers and Mark 21s are almost the same aircraft, but are made in different years. Slight differences give the Mark 21 a slight edge in cruise speed. For instance, the Ranger doesn’t have a retractable step, movable cowl flaps or dorsal fin of the 21s. Also, the later Rangers didn’t have the flush riveted underwing. Though these are small items, they add up to 4-6 mph slower cruise speeds. Mark 21s from 1965 and later and all Rangers have 52-gallon fuel tanks, enough for almost a half-hour more cruise over the 48-gallon ’61-64 Mark 21s. This confuses me. Mine is a 1964, has 52 gallon tank, retractable step, manual cowl flaps, and dorsal fin. Am I a Ranger or a Mk21? (breaker box lid says Mk21) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 It's a Mk 21. Mooney changed to the 52 gallon tanks somewhere around 1963/64- but that's where the years get funky. There were '63s that were sold as 1964 models. My 1964 definitely has 52 gallon tanks as well, but looking through the parts manual, I think I have some "leftover" 1963 parts, such as the heater assembly on the firewall. My M20C birthdate was January 7, 1964 according to the first flight in the first logbook. My first Mooney was a 1967 M20C. It was officially a Mk 21 also, since the "official" Rangers didn't start until late '67/early '68. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWinter Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 I think model and years seem to depend on Mooney's economic state and ownership.. Mine is a 73, but sat on the line until 74. Delivered as a 74 during the Republic Steel era. Had some new features and some older features. I think the 73-74s were kind of orphans. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 Oh, and to make it even weirder- the M20B is a Mk 21 also. But it's really not that weird. The Mark 20 was the wooden M20 and M20A. The M20 was Al Mooney's 20th design. When the Mooney factory metalized the M20, they called it the Mark 21. When they put in the 200 HP IO-360, they called it the Super 21. When they stretched it in 1967, they named it the Executive 21 (the first of which were actually released in 1966). When they put the 180 HP engine in the stretched body, they called it the Statesman in 1968, at which point they finally gave the Mark 21 a name: the Ranger. Then to confuse things even more, they renamed the Super 21 the Chaparral. They kept those names until the 201 came out in 1977. If I missed anything, hopefully someone will provide corrections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Can anyone tell me what this is? I don't recall seeing it on other C models. . Edited January 31, 2018 by Shadrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 External power plug door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 Looks like a dent to me . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandontwalker Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 Can anyone tell me what this is? I don't recall seeing it on other C models. . APU port. Battery on C models is up front. Moved to the tail with the J. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, Brandontwalker said: APU port. Battery on C models is up front. Moved to the tail with the J. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Moved to the tail with the F. I thought is might be a door, but it looks concave in the pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Shadrach said: Moved to the tail with the F. I thought is might be a door, but it looks concave in the pic. It is concave. It looks too small for a power port, maybe a deck of cards in size or smaller. Its also way below the bottom of the battery box. My C certainly doesn't have one of these. Here's the battery box behind the cylinders, near the top of the cheek panel: Now curiosity is killing me. What is that thing??? P.S.--Clarence, this was my reference photo before I replaced the ignition harness. Edited January 31, 2018 by Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, Hank said: It is concave. It looks too small for a power port, maybe a deck of cards in size or smaller. Its also way below the bottom of the battery box. My C certainly doesn't have one of these. Here's the battery box behind the cylinders, near the top of the cheek panel: Now curiosity is killing me. What is that thing??? P.S.--Clarence, this was my reference photo before I replaced the ignition harness. Is that undercoating on your firewall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 23 minutes ago, Shadrach said: Moved to the tail with the F. I thought is might be a door, but it looks concave in the pic. Actually the battery moved to the rear with the E which introduced the heavier IO360. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shadrach said: Is that undercoating on your firewall? It's rough, black and was there when I bought her in June '07. Sure not Byron's poljshed firewall, is it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhop Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 10 hours ago, jesse said: Hi Everyone, Apologies if this is the wrong place to post, but I've been lurking for a bit and am considering my first purchase (currently around 200TT, IR, working on hours for CPL). I'm hoping to find something relatively quick and IFR-equipped, and stumbled across this guy yesterday: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2287812&s-type=aircraft Other than the 430 not having WAAS and the inevitable ADSB upgrade, it looks like a pretty great deal? The damage was apparently a gear-up landing 8 years ago but it's been flying since then. But you guys know a ton more about these planes than I do... Thanks! Looks like a nice C with a run-out engine. Two questions for you to help steer the post... What's your mission and budget? I started looking at F's and ended up buying a J based upon all of my reading on MooneySpace. You may find that you will get model recommendations depending on your answers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 This plane was for sale on here a couple of years ago and sold. The previous post may give some info. It's a good deal at posted price if it's super clean, meticulously maintained, gets stellar marks on a qualified prebuy. Assuming it's an average one, it may be a tad overpriced. No way to know with limited info. As far as the engine, it's almost run out. Assuming last major overhaul was >20 years ago, I'd insist on pricing as a fully run out engine. The more recent top overhaul adds no price bump by most valuation standards. However the top may help make it a good value for you if you happen to get another 1000 hours or more out of it. No way to predict though, so price as a run out. Take a look at the Vref (AOPA) and the Garrison (All American Aircraft) valuation tools. Maybe subtract 5-10% from those numbers as they tend to give retail numbers that are a tad high. But on the surface it looks like a really nice bird. The '68C is a terrific capable plane for not much money and manageable operational costs. It was the last year of the J-bar, hydraulic flaps, and wing flush rivets on the C models. It is the first year of the one piece windshield and fixed step, so no issue with removing the vac pump like in the '66-'67 with vac driven steps if you want to upgrade the panel. All nice things to have. Yes I am absurdly biased! I own and love one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse Posted January 31, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 Thanks everyone for the advice – I'll definitely look into the corrosion and other questions here and look at a run-out price. As to the mission/budget, I'd say $30-40k ideally, IFR capable with a GPS (ideally WAAS but I can deal with non), I'm based in NYC building hours so it would be 50/50 local flights (100-200 NM) and longer trips with the girlfriend (500+ NM). I imagine for anything I find I'll have to deal with ADSB as we get closer to 2020.z I've been renting but my options here are just Archers/172's and Cirruses (Cirri??) which are the current vehicle of choice but quite expensive. Plus I figure I'll just keep flying further and further so wanted something with solid range and decent speed:fuel burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 Jesse, There is a group of Mooney pilots in your area... aka NJMP. They organize fly-ins often... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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