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What to do if unable to talk to ATC after reaching “fly to” limi


RobertE

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26 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Speaking to the folks comparing to IFR flying.  I’m an IR student.  Getting close to check ride.  Perhaps I don’t understand lost comm procedures.  All clearances require a destination airport.  If I am given instructions to fly to a certain point, but then comms are lost, it was my understanding that i continue to fly my clearance.  If I lose comms and just hold forever at the fly to limit.... that seems like it would be a problem.

You are right. Practically speaking 99% of all IFR clearances are to the destination airport. There are exceptions, for example, lost comm when you are given a hold for traffic management. As you go through you IFR Ground, you'll come across discussions of various lost comm scenarios and how the rules in FAR 91.185 and the AIM guidance on that reg apply to them.

Edited by midlifeflyer
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1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

You are right. Practically speaking 99% of all IFR clearances are to the destination airport. There are exceptions, for example, lost comm when you are given a hold for traffic management. As you go through you IFR Ground, you'll come across discussions of various lost comm scenarios and how the rules in FAR 91.185 and the AIM guidance on that reg apply to them.

If I am given a hold, I also have to be given an expect further clearance time, correct? If I lose comms, I proceed at that time.  Right?

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Again, everyone is correct, in Class C or D airspace, as long as you have two-way communication, you can do anything unless you are given and accept instructions.  The question is whether those instructions have a limit or not.  I'm assuming the OP had a "fly to" instruction, which does not imply a limit.  If he heard "cleared to", which I've never heard for VFR traffic, then it would.

VFR takeoff clearances are common examples of clearance limits at Class C airports. If you accept it, you can't go off in any direction and altitude you want after takeoff, although I've never heard a VFR takeoff clearance giving a waypoint limit.

In terms of not being able to get a word in edgewise on the radio, I've had a couple ATC contacts where I never got a chance to say anything.  Some of the VFR transition routes over LAX are handled by LAX tower.  Approach hands you over to LAX and you're in their class B for about 2 minutes.  Both times I've been, I could never make an initial call between all the departing airliners, and then 2 minutes later, LAX calls out and says "frequency change approved."  In this case, though, ATC never says anything to suggest there is a limit to how far I can go, so there was never an issue.

Edited by jaylw314
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2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Again, everyone is correct, in Class C or D airspace, as long as you have two-way communication, you can do anything unless you are given and accept instructions.  The question is whether those instructions have a limit or not.  I'm assuming the OP had a "fly to" instruction, which does not imply a limit.  If he heard "cleared to", which I've never heard for VFR traffic, then it would.

VFR takeoff clearances are common examples of clearance limits at Class C airports. If you accept it, you can't go off in any direction and altitude you want after takeoff, although I've never heard a VFR takeoff clearance giving a waypoint limit.

 

I still wouldn't refer to takeoff instructions as "clearance limits." The AIM definition is "The fix, point, or location to which an aircraft is cleared when issued an air traffic clearance."  The ICAO defines it as "The point to which an aircraft is granted an air traffic control clearance."  It's really just an IFR concept and I would be surprised if there was even one mention of "VFR" and "clearance limit" in the same sentence or thought in any FAA publication (except for VFR On Top,  an IFR clearance).  The typical Class C restriction for direction and altitude, "after takeoff, turn left 220, remain at or below 2,000" is an instruction, not a clearance*, and certainly does not contain a clearance limit.

[*yes, I'm familiar with the common teaching of the CRAFT acronym for VFR Class C departures. But the fact most of us teach "CRAFT" rather than "RAFT" doesn't change the instructions into a clearance.]

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50 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I still wouldn't refer to takeoff instructions as "clearance limits." The AIM definition is "The fix, point, or location to which an aircraft is cleared when issued an air traffic clearance."  The ICAO defines it as "The point to which an aircraft is granted an air traffic control clearance."  It's really just an IFR concept and I would be surprised if there was even one mention of "VFR" and "clearance limit" in the same sentence or thought in any FAA publication (except for VFR On Top,  an IFR clearance).  The typical Class C restriction for direction and altitude, "after takeoff, turn left 220, remain at or below 2,000" is an instruction, not a clearance*, and certainly does not contain a clearance limit.

[*yes, I'm familiar with the common teaching of the CRAFT acronym for VFR Class C departures. But the fact most of us teach "CRAFT" rather than "RAFT" doesn't change the instructions into a clearance.]

Yes, there is nothing in the AIM about VFR takeoff clearances, but the instruction "remain at or below 2000" does explicitly give a limit on altitude, and if you accept it, you're stuck keeping it even if you're VFR. 

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33 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Yes, there is nothing in the AIM about VFR takeoff clearances, but the instruction "remain at or below 2000" does explicitly give a limit on altitude, and if you accept it, you're stuck keeping it even if you're VFR. 

I agree completely, except perhaps the "if you accept it" part, although I guess you can refuse to accept it and stay firmly planted on the ground. 

I suspect we are talking past each other. My only points are two:

"Clearance limit," as defined and used by the FAA, is a phrase which applies only to IFR. T

Any directions,  restrictions or limitations give to a VFR other than "cleared "for takeoff or landing and "cleared into Class B"  are instructions. Restrictions associated with any of those, including altitude restrictions, vectors in Class B or C, etc,  are not "clearance limits." They are instructions which, like all instructions given by ATC in controlled airspace, must be obeyed absent an emergency.

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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Yes, there is nothing in the AIM about VFR takeoff clearances, but the instruction "remain at or below 2000" does explicitly give a limit on altitude, and if you accept it, you're stuck keeping it even if you're VFR. 

Sure, but for how long?  At what point do you disregard the instruction if you can't make contact with the controller?  I'm not flying 300nm at 2000' if I can't get back with the Class C controller from who's airspace I departed.  Once I'm out of their airspace, I'm not required to talk to them again.  I would assume that the restriction ended at the boundary of their airspace and act accordingly.  

If I was inside their airspace and told "fly 220 degrees to such and such a point", which was still inside their airspace, I would resume own navigation after reaching that point since they gave no further instructions.  They did not say "fly to such and such and hold".

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21 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Sure, but for how long?  At what point do you disregard the instruction if you can't make contact with the controller?  I'm not flying 300nm at 2000' if I can't get back with the Class C controller from who's airspace I departed.  Once I'm out of their airspace, I'm not required to talk to them again.  I would assume that the restriction ended at the boundary of their airspace and act accordingly.  

If I was inside their airspace and told "fly 220 degrees to such and such a point", which was still inside their airspace, I would resume own navigation after reaching that point since they gave no further instructions.  They did not say "fly to such and such and hold".

I'm not sure, but I have always asked the next controller. Coming back from Phoenix Sunday I asked for a VFR descent after passing Palm Springs. The controller asked what altitude I wanted to descend to. I told her I would like to begin my descent all the way to Corona. She restricted me at or above 6,500' for traffic. Shortly after that I was handed off and after contacting ATC I relayed the altitude restriction and asked if I could have lower yet. They gave me down to 4,500' and then a bit after that let me resume my descent. If I hadn't been able to make contact I would have just changed my transponder back to 1200 and flown where I wanted while staying out of everyone's airspace.

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1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Sure, but for how long?  At what point do you disregard the instruction if you can't make contact with the controller?  I'm not flying 300nm at 2000' if I can't get back with the Class C controller from who's airspace I departed.  Once I'm out of their airspace, I'm not required to talk to them again.  I would assume that the restriction ended at the boundary of their airspace and act accordingly.  

If I was inside their airspace and told "fly 220 degrees to such and such a point", which was still inside their airspace, I would resume own navigation after reaching that point since they gave no further instructions.  They did not say "fly to such and such and hold".

I would agree that if ATC said "fly to XXX", I would go past that if we couldn't talk and I was VFR in Class C airspace.  If they told me "do NOT go past XXX", which has happened to me in Class C airspace once, that's pretty explicit, though.

The AIM does actually point out that "lost communications" is not a black-and-white issue, and that it is impossible to issue rules about every conceivable situation.  A situation where you are unable to communicate with ATC in a timely fashion because of a busy frequency is an example of a such a grey area.  And so the guideline in the AIM is to...exercise your best judgment <_<  I think most people would say if you truly lost comms, just squawk 7600 or 1200 (or 7600 THEN 1200), and go on your merry way once outside the Class C.

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I agree completely, except perhaps the "if you accept it" part, although I guess you can refuse to accept it and stay firmly planted on the ground. 

I suspect we are talking past each other. My only points are two:

"Clearance limit," as defined and used by the FAA, is a phrase which applies only to IFR. T

Any directions,  restrictions or limitations give to a VFR other than "cleared "for takeoff or landing and "cleared into Class B"  are instructions. Restrictions associated with any of those, including altitude restrictions, vectors in Class B or C, etc,  are not "clearance limits." They are instructions which, like all instructions given by ATC in controlled airspace, must be obeyed absent an emergency.

Point(s) taken! :) 

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1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

I'm not sure, but I have always asked the next controller. Coming back from Phoenix Sunday I asked for a VFR descent after passing Palm Springs. The controller asked what altitude I wanted to descend to. I told her I would like to begin my descent all the way to Corona. She restricted me at or above 6,500' for traffic. Shortly after that I was handed off and after contacting ATC I relayed the altitude restriction and asked if I could have lower yet. They gave me down to 4,500' and then a bit after that let me resume my descent. If I hadn't been able to make contact I would have just changed my transponder back to 1200 and flown where I wanted while staying out of everyone's airspace.

I've never asked for a descent.  I've flown similar route several times (heading to KCRQ from Phoenix).  If they haven't restricted my altitude, I just head down when I'm ready.   Some controllers seem to want you to ask and some get testy when you do.  Since I never really know, and I'm VFR, I stopped asking. 

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11 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I've never asked for a descent.  I've flown similar route several times (heading to KCRQ from Phoenix).  If they haven't restricted my altitude, I just head down when I'm ready.   Some controllers seem to want you to ask and some get testy when you do.  Since I never really know, and I'm VFR, I stopped asking. 

I ask for descents when IFR. For VFR flights, I generally advise ATC on flight following that I'm starting my VFR descent for my destination; if the frequency is congested, I'll start down anyway and let 'em know when I can. But ATC keeps me out of Bravo space  and I rarely visit Charlie or Delta anymore . . . .

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16 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I've never asked for a descent.  I've flown similar route several times (heading to KCRQ from Phoenix).  If they haven't restricted my altitude, I just head down when I'm ready.   Some controllers seem to want you to ask and some get testy when you do.  Since I never really know, and I'm VFR, I stopped asking. 

The SoCal controllers will often give instructions to advise prior to any altitude change once you reach your requested cruising altitude. I have also had more than one occasion where I have asked for the descent and been denied, told to maintain my current altitude for traffic and that they would advise when I could begin descending. (Fairly busy skies here) As a result I have always requested the descent and never had any grief from them or the Phoenix approach controllers. It seems to be a regional thing as I have heard others talk about controllers getting annoyed by a request for a VFR descent.

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

I ask for descents when IFR. For VFR flights, I generally advise ATC on flight following that I'm starting my VFR descent for my destination; if the frequency is congested, I'll start down anyway and let 'em know when I can. But ATC keeps me out of Bravo space  and I rarely visit Charlie or Delta anymore . . . .

43 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

The SoCal controllers will often give instructions to advise prior to any altitude change once you reach your requested cruising altitude.

Makes sense to do that in SoCal airspace, but even there they are telling you to advise them, not ask them.  That way, if there is no other traffic, they can just respond "Roger" and go on with other duties.  When you ask for a descent, they have to give you instructions, then you have to read those instructions back, even if there is no other traffic around.  If there is traffic when you advise them of your descent, at that point, they can say "Negative, maintain current altitude" or "Remain at or above 4,000" without your having to ask.  It just ends up saving everyone radio time.

 

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1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

The SoCal controllers will often give instructions to advise prior to any altitude change once you reach your requested cruising altitude. I have also had more than one occasion where I have asked for the descent and been denied, told to maintain my current altitude for traffic and that they would advise when I could begin descending. (Fairly busy skies here) As a result I have always requested the descent and never had any grief from them or the Phoenix approach controllers. It seems to be a regional thing as I have heard others talk about controllers getting annoyed by a request for a VFR descent.

Yes,  it typically happens to me heading east.  

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