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GPS position jumping with GTX345+GTN650 and Foreflight+iPad


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Recently did a panel upgrade on my M20J. Thanks to this forum, ended up going with a GTX345 for ADS-B and a GTN650 for WAAS.
 
I've been using Foreflight for years with a Stratus with no issue. However, with the new panel I am having a annoying GPS position issue when I connect to my new Garmin GTX-345+GTN650 using Bluetooth.
 
The GPS position that I see on my Foreflight map is very 'jumpy' and seems to lag my position. As I'm flying, my position seems stuck for a few seconds - then will very quickly move/jump to a new location, or then jump back. Often it's moving/jumping over 1cm on the map at a time, which can be over a 1 nm! (I'm using a Wifi-only iPad Air)
 
This is a new phenomenon. For years I have been using my Stratus 2S via Wifi to the same iPad without any issue. As a test, I went back to my Stratus and it worked fine and I never saw any issue with position.
 
I'm not sure if new issue is with Bluetooth or something specific to our Mooney's Garmin 345+GTN650 setup. It's happened on multiple flights weeks apart. We just did a $20k upgrade on this panel - but I can't seem to get a reliable, smooth, position using this new setup with Foreflight. The position seems fine on the GTN650 screen though - so I don't think it's a GPS issue. 
 
I fly in very crowded SFO airspace and this is very disconcerting. Anyone else report a similar issue with GTX345+GTN650 and Foreflight? Any ideas on mitigation? It's not very confidence inspiring. 

 

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Had a gtx345 installed in my F when I bought it 6months ago. It uses the WAAS from my 430W. I just started using the Bluetooth feature on it to connect to foreflight over the last couple flights and have the exact same thing happening. It's accompanied with "Connext Towers" (think it's spelled with an X) dropping to 0. I'm in the southern PA area and fly around the SFRA quite often. Hoping this thread can shed some light on the issue. 

 

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Recently did a panel upgrade on my M20J. Thanks to this forum, ended up going with a GTX345 for ADS-B and a GTN650 for WAAS.   I've been using Foreflight for years with a Stratus with no issue. However, with the new panel I am having a annoying GPS position issue when I connect to my new Garmin GTX-345+GTN650 using Bluetooth.   The GPS position that I see on my Foreflight map is very 'jumpy' and seems to lag my position. As I'm flying, my position seems stuck for a few seconds - then will very quickly move/jump to a new location, or then jump back. Often it's moving/jumping over 1cm on the map at a time, which can be over a 1 nm! (I'm using a Wifi-only iPad Air)   This is a new phenomenon. For years I have been using my Stratus 2S via Wifi to the same iPad without any issue. As a test, I went back to my Stratus and it worked fine and I never saw any issue with position.   I'm not sure if new issue is with Bluetooth or something specific to our Mooney's Garmin 345+GTN650 setup. It's happened on multiple flights weeks apart. We just did a $20k upgrade on this panel - but I can't seem to get a reliable, smooth, position using this new setup with Foreflight. The position seems fine on the GTN650 screen though - so I don't think it's a GPS issue.    I fly in very crowded SFO airspace and this is very disconcerting. Anyone else report a similar issue with GTX345+GTN650 and Foreflight? Any ideas on mitigation? It's not very confidence inspiring.   


I have been safety piloting with a guy who uses ForeFlight and has a GTX-345. He is having the same issue but doesn’t have a 650 rather a 430. My Garmin Pilot worked fine.


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1 minute ago, Steve W said:

I know nothing about Foreflight, but if you're not using any WiFi devices try turning on airplane mode and then enabling only Bluetooth.

Yeah - I tried that and a few other combos. Unfortunately doesn't seem to make any difference. 

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1 hour ago, Markmp said:
Recently did a panel upgrade on my M20J. Thanks to this forum, ended up going with a GTX345 for ADS-B and a GTN650 for WAAS.
 
I've been using Foreflight for years with a Stratus with no issue. However, with the new panel I am having a annoying GPS position issue when I connect to my new Garmin GTX-345+GTN650 using Bluetooth.
 
The GPS position that I see on my Foreflight map is very 'jumpy' and seems to lag my position. As I'm flying, my position seems stuck for a few seconds - then will very quickly move/jump to a new location, or then jump back. Often it's moving/jumping over 1cm on the map at a time, which can be over a 1 nm! (I'm using a Wifi-only iPad Air)
 
This is a new phenomenon. For years I have been using my Stratus 2S via Wifi to the same iPad without any issue. As a test, I went back to my Stratus and it worked fine and I never saw any issue with position.
 
I'm not sure if new issue is with Bluetooth or something specific to our Mooney's Garmin 345+GTN650 setup. It's happened on multiple flights weeks apart. We just did a $20k upgrade on this panel - but I can't seem to get a reliable, smooth, position using this new setup with Foreflight. The position seems fine on the GTN650 screen though - so I don't think it's a GPS issue. 
 
I fly in very crowded SFO airspace and this is very disconcerting. Anyone else report a similar issue with GTX345+GTN650 and Foreflight? Any ideas on mitigation? It's not very confidence inspiring. 

 

I seem to recall reading about something like this being a known foreflight issue. Have you contacted them? 

Maybe a good time to consider switching to G Pilot.

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33 minutes ago, Steve W said:

I know nothing about Foreflight, but if you're not using any WiFi devices try turning on airplane mode and then enabling only Bluetooth.

When In an airplane turn on airplane mode! Makes sense to me! :D

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7 minutes ago, PTK said:

That sounds like a foreflight issue. Have you contacted them? 

Maybe a good time to consider switching to G Pilot.

 

I did ask Foreflight and just got a somewhat generic BT error response. I haven't been able to try any of this yet, but frustrating that to get position you might need a magic BT startup incantation.

 

Thanks for your email. I would like to pass on to you some steps which you may find beneficial as a "workaround" for the issue you are having with your GTX 345 and its connectivity to ForeFlight. I encourage you to give these a try and please report back to us if you see improved performance and/or resolution of the issue.

1. When starting up your avionics console (which includes your GTX 345 and any other connected avionics devices), please allow for full start-up and capturing of GPS signals and ownship location before pairing/connecting your iPad or iPhone device to the panel. We have seen instances where an early Bluetooth connection of the device to the GTX 345 has created some issues.
2. If you continue to have data connectivity or feature issues (eg. AHRS not showing up on ForeFlight) and Step #1 above did not work, go to SETTINGS on your iPad or iPhone > BLUETOOTH > and turn off the Bluetooth connection, then turn it back on.
3. As a last resort (and this is more difficult), on your iPad or iPhone, go to SETTINGS > BLUETOOTH > select the GTX 345 Bluetooth connection > and tap Forget This Device. Then re-pair your connection to the GTX 345 with a fresh Bluetooth connection.

Give that a try and let us know if you have any success with these steps. We look forward to your response so we can assist further in resolving this issue.

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This is a known Garmin issue. Garmin will never own up to the problem. They will just blame it on Foreflight.

The bluetooth connection is being dropped by the GTX 345 and then reconnecting. When it drops out you loose the position data for the iPad. 

The GTX 345 also has a long standing AHRS problem that makes the internal attitude indicator unstable. The horizon is tilted and will not correct. For safety please turn off or do not use the AHRS output from the GTX 345 until these units are verified to be accurate.

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34 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

This is a known Garmin issue. Garmin will never own up to the problem. They will just blame it on Foreflight.

The bluetooth connection is being dropped by the GTX 345 and then reconnecting. When it drops out you loose the position data for the iPad. 

The GTX 345 also has a long standing AHRS problem that makes the internal attitude indicator unstable. The horizon is tilted and will not correct. For safety please turn off or do not use the AHRS output from the GTX 345 until these units are verified to be accurate.

Does this mean that the problem would also appear on Garmin Pilot when used on the iPad (vs. Android)? 

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It would be helpful if [mention=6909]Cruiser[/mention] referenced the known Garmin alert. There was an issue a year or more ago that was blamed on IOS issues and prior firmware issues. But this is the first I have heard of continued issues and I fly with multiple people w/ FF and a FS210 or 510 or even just a solo GTX 345.

I'd suggest all other background apps be closed on your device and make sure you have the latest firmware on everything. My GP with FS510 works flawlessly.

 

 

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It would be helpful if [mention=6909]Cruiser[/mention] referenced the known Garmin alert. There was an issue a year or more ago that was blamed on IOS issues and prior firmware issues. But this is the first I have heard of continued issues and I fly with multiple people w/ FF and a FS210 or 510 or even just a solo GTX 345.

I'd suggest all other background apps be closed on your device and make sure you have the latest firmware on everything. My GP with FS510 works flawlessly.

 

 

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Garmin has had issues with ForeFlight in the past, including Service Advisory 1684 Rev B which dealt with FIS-B not showing up on ForeFlight. This was corrected with STC SB 1758.

 

0d725f553669b2e0bcc1f7afe3d7177d.jpg

 

Not sure who is at fault with this current issue.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Markmp said:
Recently did a panel upgrade on my M20J. Thanks to this forum, ended up going with a GTX345 for ADS-B and a GTN650 for WAAS.
 
I've been using Foreflight for years with a Stratus with no issue. However, with the new panel I am having a annoying GPS position issue when I connect to my new Garmin GTX-345+GTN650 using Bluetooth.
 
The GPS position that I see on my Foreflight map is very 'jumpy' and seems to lag my position. As I'm flying, my position seems stuck for a few seconds - then will very quickly move/jump to a new location, or then jump back. Often it's moving/jumping over 1cm on the map at a time, which can be over a 1 nm! (I'm using a Wifi-only iPad Air)
 
This is a new phenomenon. For years I have been using my Stratus 2S via Wifi to the same iPad without any issue. As a test, I went back to my Stratus and it worked fine and I never saw any issue with position.
 
I'm not sure if new issue is with Bluetooth or something specific to our Mooney's Garmin 345+GTN650 setup. It's happened on multiple flights weeks apart. We just did a $20k upgrade on this panel - but I can't seem to get a reliable, smooth, position using this new setup with Foreflight. The position seems fine on the GTN650 screen though - so I don't think it's a GPS issue. 
 
I fly in very crowded SFO airspace and this is very disconcerting. Anyone else report a similar issue with GTX345+GTN650 and Foreflight? Any ideas on mitigation? It's not very confidence inspiring. 

 

Mark, with your GTN and setup it's worth considering a dedicated aera 660 or the larger 796 instead of an ipad. They will give you large mfd display almost the size of the 750. You can hardwire it to the gtn and mount it in the panel and via bt to the 345. And with mapmx format made possible with the gtn these units can display curved paths for all phases including approach and missed approach procedures and holding patterns exactly to what is shown on your gtn. Also gives you terrain and obstacle alerts. It's a much better option than the ipad imo.

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It seems to be an issue with the 345, I fly in my buddies Bonanza, the IPAD worked solid, he then had a 345and flightstream installed the the issues as mentioned above appeared. I have a 345R and foreflight less flghtstream with no issues.

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Doesn't it seem as though Garmin has lost it?

In their effort to lock out everyone else they have built in problems that appear to only allow Garmin to work reliably with other Garmin units. Buyer beware, considering a new Garmin unit may buy you headaches and a long list of trips to the avionics shop draining your pocketbook. 

On the bright side alt least you will fly more.......... taking your plane to the shop.

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14 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

Doesn't it seem as though Garmin has lost it?

In their effort to lock out everyone else they have built in problems that appear to only allow Garmin to work reliably with other Garmin units. Buyer beware, considering a new Garmin unit may buy you headaches and a long list of trips to the avionics shop draining your pocketbook. 

On the bright side alt least you will fly more.......... taking your plane to the shop.

I'm not sure if it is intentional (I would hope not) but it does seem strange that it is only the non-Garmin app that is having a problem. If it was a positional issue based on the AHRS feed to an app, it would also have been an issue on Garmin Pilot. This conversation reminds me of the Aspen / Garmin finger pointing about why the GTX-345 wouldn't display on the Aspens. Magically, it got done.

 

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I don't know Garmin/Foreflight equipment, but many EFB's have an option to use the internal GPS on your tablet vs the external GPS from an outside source (in this case, the GTX345).  Does Foreflight have such an option?  If so, double check it is set to use the external GPS source.

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43 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I don't know Garmin/Foreflight equipment, but many EFB's have an option to use the internal GPS on your tablet vs the external GPS from an outside source (in this case, the GTX345).  Does Foreflight have such an option?  If so, double check it is set to use the external GPS source.

I know that in at least my case (sounds the same as Markmp, except I have a 430) my ipad is the non-gps version.  Without connection to the gtx345 I will get no position information from Foreflight. 

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1 hour ago, DualRatedFlyer said:

I know that in at least my case (sounds the same as Markmp, except I have a 430) my ipad is the non-gps version.  Without connection to the gtx345 I will get no position information from Foreflight. 

So much for that idea.  Does it have a cell-phone radio?  I don't know iPad's, but some tablets that have built-in cell-phones use the cell-phone as a location service to roughly triangulate their position in lieu of GPS.  Grasping at straws here, of course....

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6 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

So much for that idea.  Does it have a cell-phone radio?  I don't know iPad's, but some tablets that have built-in cell-phones use the cell-phone as a location service to roughly triangulate their position in lieu of GPS.  Grasping at straws here, of course....

Thats another negative.  The ipads with the cellphone radio are GPS equipped.  Those that have no cellular radio (mine) have no built in gps (mine again..)

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2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

....Use the internal GPS.... Does Foreflight have such an option?  

Yes, FF uses the internal GPS on an iPad or iPhone.  

An iPad with cellular modem also has the GPS receiver.  You don’t need a cellular connection or subscription for FF to utilize the iPad GPS hardware.  

My iPad 3 has worked with FF that way for 5 years in 3 airplanes.  No cellular service activated in that time tho the iPad is the cellular version. 

 

 

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