bradp Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 I was reading the other thread about whether to put money into upgrades or not for a forever plane or not and got to thinking... Family soon to be four with a dog. Eventually we are going to outgrow the cubic inches available to us in our J model. Thinking about the next 3-5 years and what we anticipate needing to support my aviation addiction and our family travel needs. Whats the logical step up plane for a growing family? One answer might be hunker down and wait for the kids to graduate college ;-). Being a Mooney driver speed and efficiency are key (I wouldn’t say no to a lance / toga nor would I actively engage in seeking one out). Lets propose the mission is 500-700nm with two adults and two teens - say 600 lbs or less of people and animals 150 lbs or less of bags. Not quite but inching toward the 800lbs/800nm benchmark. Trips may include ventures to the NE in the winter and open water trips to the Bahamas / Caribbean. - Realistically a six place aircraft would be required for 4 adults plus bags - Small children mean oxygen is not really an option. - Pressurized cabin and above the slag would be preferred. I’m thinking anything with a turbo would need a Delta P. - Family lives in the NE. If I were to buy another plane FIKI would be a requirement ...and then there’s the one versus two engine thing. Seems like the aircraft that fit this mission profile are: Notmally aspirated / unpressurized - Bonanza A36 / Baron 55 / C310 - Cirrus with the 5 seats and UL / RV-10 Pressurized - Malibu (my hangar neighbor thinks that 1986-1987 Malibu’s are just about the bees knees) - Aerostar In terms of light GA - I know that’s not a complete listing but pretty much hits the high points, right? Pipe dream I think is an Aerostar being the closest thing to a twin Mooney. In the meantime the small child will go in front, the infant in back with her mom and our dog will sit on the floor board under the car seat... poor old guy. I’m also going to keep upgrading the J so long as the Mrs lets me. :-) What do you say to this blasphemy? How have other folks gone about the family vs space thing? -B Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Been through this Brad. If these trips with the whole family are going to be in the double digit number annually and if the kids will continue to travel with you, then moving up to a larger and more capable plane makes sense. I weathered this with my two kids. By the time they were in their teenage years, they had no burning desire to fly with the parents anywhere. We still did the occasional holiday gathering where I needed to rent something bigger (Cessna 182 or Piper Saratoga). Now that one is out of the house and the other is in his junior year of college, it is basically back to two people traveling. For me, with both of us working full time, it never got to a point that I could justify a larger plane because our schedules (and the kid's school schedules) made it difficult. 5 Quote
carusoam Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 I'm like Jim... But more compounded into the polymer, than dyed into the wool... You get more consistent coloring by putting the color in before making the fiber... Try feeding stylish colors to a sheep... Got to know my M20C down to each nut and bolt... Learned to fly each procedure as good as I ever was going too... Moving to the next Mooney was surprisingly familiar... In a typical fashion, I engineered my family to stay the same size... back seaters can be full sized for about 10years... between sports and college, my back seat has been more empty than filled... The only change in family size over the years was an addition of a medium sized dog... For your flights, the 310hp Acclaim makes a lot of sense... Changing to a different bird and starting over with all that knowledge acquisition.... Added cognitive cost. Not unless I was Going turbine.... then I would be calling Mooney before committing to follow Jerry and our other Brad the Acclaim owner on the P46T band wagon... both those guys were LBers before moving on... @Jerry 5TJ @BradB Go turbine or stay Mooney, your choice... How’s that for mental mathematics..? Best regards, -a- 6 Quote
mooneyspeed Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 We seem to make it work. Myself and the Mrs up front. The 2 kids are young so they are still in car seats in the rear. In the back we toss in the large bag, on top of that is the dog bed followed by a 75 lbs chocolate labs and an 18 lbs Boston Terrier. It’s crowded but it all fits. Some light items on the hat rack. Full fuel and we are still 20-30 lbs under gross. Those dogs are getting older so that weight will be regained in a few years. Soon we can ditch 50 lbs worth of car seats too. The wife had an adjustment packing lighter but it’s been great for when we go commercial or a road trip. Hasn’t changed my life much since I live out of a bag for work. Space is an issue at Christmas time though. We fly an ‘81 K model. I’d be down for a Malibu though. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
1964-M20E Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Well I waited for the first one to get married and move out before I bought a plane. Oh that was the reason I bought the plane she moved 660 diving miles away and 492NM flying. If you will only need the extra capacity a couple times a year find a Saratoga type 6 place that you can rent and fly it every few months in between the scheduled family trips. The majority of my trips are by myself or with one other adult. Quote
Browncbr1 Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 If looking at operation cost, the only thing bigger I would get would be an A36. If looking at acquisition cost, B55 possibly 58. Keep you 90% mission in check. Fly with tanks to the tabs or half tanks for a few years until they move out. Making a stop for fuel is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a bigger more expensive plane that burns way more fuel anyway. Is getting out and stretching legs a few times per year a good price to pay for saving a hundred grand? 7 Quote
gsengle Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 You're missing an obvious contender, a turbo Saratoga... Although in that case I'd be looking at twins... Quote
carqwik Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) Folks forget about Piper's Matrix, the non-pressurized variant in the PA46 line... A buddy had one for a few years...this plane carries the load and goes the distance! Only downside is that you need O2 to get high...so to speak! Edited January 28, 2018 by carqwik grammar 1 Quote
larryb Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Leave the dog home and pack light. 3 Quote
M016576 Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) You’re going to be hard pressed to find a newer Mooney that will haul more than your J. The “best” useful loads are about 1100lbs- and none of the turbo options come in up there AFAIK, except maybe the Rocket. The Ovation, the S and the Missile all give you a nice useful load, but no turbo. There was that one K that Parker modded- I think he got a pretty nice useful out of it after the STC if I remember correctly. really- for what you want, it sounds like you would do well with an Aerostar, or a P-Baron. Both of those will run you 4-5x the cost of operating your J. The question to ask, is the extra cost (and training for a light twin) palatable? If not, keep the J and use the extra money to buy airline tickets for those big trips! ive been going through this same issue in my mind, too..... and can’t find a good answer! Edited January 29, 2018 by M016576 1 Quote
MIm20c Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 I think you will find any upgrade will be considerably more expensive to own and operate. Too many unknowns going forward regarding fuel prices and maintenance costs. In the end I might buy one more plane in the next 30 years. It will probably be an Ovation or Bravo depending on how addicted I get to the turbo. If you are working towards three women in the house you will need all the extra spending money you can get. 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) I’ve been through this exercise and found that if I’m honest with myself, there is definitely no Mooney upgrade that make any sense. In fact there is little in the way of single engine upgrades that make sense unless we go turbine. Maybe a D’shannon modded TN A36. If we upgrade, it will mean my ship has really come in because it will be big enough to bring the a family of four plus grand parents or maybe a nanny. Maybe a Navajo or if I need a place to throw money a C441 or C90. As it stands I can go 500nm with >800lbs in the cabin in ~3.5hrs block time for about $125hr. I can pay a lot of money to better any one (maybe two) of the first three attributes by some measure, but will certainly lose considerable ground on hourly cost. To better my Mooney on speed, payload and range by anything significant is going to take a signicant purchase up front and a lot more in operational costs. As a Mooney guy, I love speed but my family would hardly notice if our summer flight from MD to ME took 2:30 instead of 3:10. I would love something newer and faster with big ramp appeal, but in real world performance per dollar it’s really hard to beat a 4cyl mid body as a family truckster. I love dogs, but I’m sure glad we don’t have one as that would force me into a looking at Togas and Centurions. That would make it one of the most expensive dogs in the country. Edited January 29, 2018 by Shadrach 3 1 Quote
Hank Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 Does no one but me board the dog in a kennel when going on vacation? Pet-friendly places in decent shape are difficult to find . . . 5 Quote
SantosDumont Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 When I win the lottery I’m buying a TBM. Until then I’m buying tickets on Southwest when we need to take the kids somewhere. 4 Quote
AZM20C Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 My dog goes where I go or I don’t go. Usually. 2 Quote
TTaylor Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 Just on the other side of the kid thing and almost to the point of reducing the dog net weight. We found as the kids hit college they were busy and often were not able to travel at the same time anyway. Often one would drive or fly commercial for family gatherings because they had to be someplace else before we were returning. We flew one leg together this summer for the first time in a while after my father-in-laws funeral. My wife had flown out commercial ahead of us. I had to carry a little less fuel and made a stop. Our oldest is in medical school and has not traveled with us much since mid-undergrad. The youngest is a junior and is often my co-pilot these days. The dog is 100 pounds of golden pyrenees, but he is getting older and the next dog will be smaller (I hope ). I told my wife we need a smaller dog, she said we needed a bigger plane. We now often travel with just two of us and the F feels so roomy. Might even consider an E someday, but I love the way the mid body flies versus the short body. As a certified efficient (cheap) Mooney pilot it is hard to fly anything else. Quote
Oldguy Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 Kids are gone and on their own, dog passed earlier this month (18 year old), and we are looking at retiring in about 3 years, so I have enough time to update our J to be how we want it to be. While the kids we growing up, we flew a 172, but mostly within a 250 nm range. Never really considered going GA for some of the vacations as they were typically international or long XC distances. Once the first one left, we stepped up to the J on my wife's suggestion. We are planning on it being our last plane, but one of the guys at the airport offered to let me use his 252 while mine is in the avionics shop. Wow is all I can say. So while the J is still likely our last plane, if a 252/Encore like the ones @kortopates and @gsxrpilot have comes available, I would snap it up and it would be the really, truly last plane. 1 Quote
Bob - S50 Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 I've done the same exercise. Twin, single. NA or pressurized (I can't see getting a turbo unless the plane is pressurized). I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned the Cessna 210 or P210. About the same speed as our J, just sucks down more fuel. Can haul a load and CG is not an issue from what I've been able to learn. P210 will haul a bit less, and a lot of people don't like the folding gear, but sounds like the OP's family is fairly light weight and should easily fit in the P210 with lots of fuel. I like the idea of an Aerostar 601P/602P or a Cessna 340... until I start thinking about operating costs. For pressurization that leads me back to either the P210 or Mailibu. The Malibu seems to have better pressurization, but the plane seems to have quite a few AD's from what I've read. Quote
smccray Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 21 hours ago, bradp said: Seems like the aircraft that fit this mission profile are: Notmally aspirated / unpressurized - Bonanza A36 / Baron 55 / C310 - Cirrus with the 5 seats and UL / RV-10 Pressurized - Malibu (my hangar neighbor thinks that 1986-1987 Malibu’s are just about the bees knees) - Aerostar Or you can picture option #5- whatever plane your wife likes and you can afford. 1 Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 30 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said: ....For pressurization that leads me back to either the P210 or Mailibu. The Malibu seems to have better pressurization, but the plane seems to have quite a few AD's from what I've read. P210 has 3.3 psi and PA46 limit is 5.5 psi on pressurization. Malibu will hold a 5000’ cabin at FL200. If you buy a well-maintained Malibu most of the ADs (which are one-time) will have been complied with. If you buy a poorly-maintained Malibu... 1 Quote
AH-1 Cobra Pilot Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 Go with the Cessna T-210/P-210. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/december/pilot/fly-off-bonanza-vs-centurion Quote
aggiepilot04 Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 For what it's worth, my kids are almost 4 and 6, and they do ok on oxygen. They're like their mother though...generally asleep before we ever leave the ground. For the multi-leg trips, a tablet plugged into their headsets keeps them still. I stay out of the flight levels when they're on board and have my wife occasionally check them with a pulse oximeter. Quote
Hank Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Oldguy said: Kids are gone and on their own, dog passed earlier this month (18 year old), and we are looking at retiring in about 3 years, so I have enough time to update our J to be how we want it to be. While the kids we growing up, we flew a 172, but mostly within a 250 nm range. Never really considered going GA for some of the vacations as they were typically international or long XC distances. Once the first one left, we stepped up to the J on my wife's suggestion. We are planning on it being our last plane, but one of the guys at the airport offered to let me use his 252 while mine is in the avionics shop. Wow is all I can say. So while the J is still likely our last plane, if a 252/Encore like the ones @kortopates and @gsxrpilot have comes available, I would snap it up and it would be the really, truly last plane. I sense a future upgrade possibility for me, if what you're about to do now doesn't' put it out of reach . . . But then again, "previous owner upgrades" are much cheaper than doing them myself! 1 Quote
kpaul Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 15 hours ago, Hank said: Does no one but me board the dog in a kennel when going on vacation? Pet-friendly places in decent shape are difficult to find . . . Nope, the dog goes everywhere, he is one of the kids. Most days I like him better, he has never once talked back. If the dog is not welcome we don't go there. Over the past 19 years of dog ownership my wife and I have gotten pretty good at planning with them in tow. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 4 hours ago, smccray said: Or you can picture option #5- whatever plane your wife likes and you can afford. When the family gets in a newer plane and they look around with smiles.... You can hear Angels singing. My avatar photo is the first day The O came home. Those are two smallish kids in the photo... A long body with a fresh Interior, nice paint and with astonishing acceleration will do that for you... Does the wife take interest in flying the plane? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.