IFR training

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

However, I am of the opinion every instrument pilot should have a hardcopy of these two vital handbooks. When I learned to fly and get my instrument rating the FAA didn't have anything like these and you had to find an independent author to get this stuff. But now days the FAA has commissioned these very excellent handbooks that cover everything you need.

The FAA books from the AC's are fantastic.  The weather one was finally redone recently (It used to be a scanned copy of a bad quality xerox).  I found that I was motivated to read them once I found out they were FREE.  FREE is a big incentive to use things, if I had to buy them I probably wouldn't have read them...

Edited January 26, 2018 by jaylw314

[peevee]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Awesome! I didn't get a 100% the first time for my IR, it was a 96 or 98 - long ago. But I did get a 100% the second time when I took for my CFII. 

back in the day it might have been easier to get 100%, you had all the questions and answers ahead of time. Nowadays I don't know. I haven't taken a written in 15+ years.

I went through the gleim books so much I could answer the question without reading it, just from the length and shape of the wording.

[kpaul]

Get the test prep from these guys http://www.sheppardair.com/instrument-rating.htm

 

[DXB]

On 1/26/2018 at 6:40 PM, peevee said:

back in the day it might have been easier to get 100%, you had all the questions and answers ahead of time. Nowadays I don't know. I haven't taken a written in 15+ years.

I went through the gleim books so much I could answer the question without reading it, just from the length and shape of the wording.

I took it 4 months ago.  80% of questions were at least formatted just like the available prep questions, which I reviewed ad nauseam, though I didn't notice many direct repeats.   10% were unrelated to the prep questions  but seemed reasonable based on general study materials.  10% were utterly from outer space. The 5/60 questions I got wrong seemed to fit this outer space category.  Each of my 5 misses was from a different subject area. I'd be curious to see what the score distribution looks like these days and how many perfect scores there are.

[kortopates]

I took it 4 months ago.  80% of questions were at least formatted just like the available prep questions, which I reviewed ad nauseam, though I didn't notice many direct repeats.   10% were unrelated to the prep questions  but seemed reasonable based on general study materials.  10% were utterly from outer space. The 5/60 questions I got wrong seemed to fit this outer space category.  Each of my 5 misses was from a different subject area. I'd be curious to see what the score distribution looks like these days and how many perfect scores there are.

They have always had a small number of questions that they were experimenting with including a couple that weren’t counted. But as long as I’ve a pilot, perfect scores were unheard of but did happen. Probably getting harder too.


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[midlifeflyer]

On 1/26/2018 at 5:16 PM, kortopates said:

Awesome! I didn't get a 100% the first time for my IR, it was a 96 or 98 - long ago. But I did get a 100% the second time when I took for my CFII. 

I've always ensured I got at least one question wrong - I don't believe in perfection. So my scores on my 6 knowledge tests ranged from 85 to 98.

Edited February 2, 2018 by midlifeflyer

[pinerunner]

I'm working towards my IFR too. My old M20E doesn't have an autopilot and in 1963 they didn't even put in the positive control wing leveler so I'm missing that advantage. I'm on a tight budget so I ponder this question quite a bit. Many say it's very foolish to attempt IFR without an autopilot. I think it's possible but you need to be very careful not to put yourself into a situation where the workload overwhelms you. You don't get to take a coffee break but you can tell ATC to wait. I'm pretty sure if you do that much they'll want to have a talk with you.

I'm pretty lucky that my son, who I helped get his private, is now enrolled in a B.S. in Aviation program so in a year or so I'll have the perfect secretary. Also he may be able to help me with the cost of strategic upgrades. If we get an autopilot, he'll probably be the one to pick it out. 

[kortopates]

38 minutes ago, pinerunner said:

I'm working towards my IFR too. My old M20E doesn't have an autopilot and in 1963 they didn't even put in the positive control wing leveler so I'm missing that advantage. I'm on a tight budget so I ponder this question quite a bit. Many say it's very foolish to attempt IFR without an autopilot. I think it's possible but you need to be very careful not to put yourself into a situation where the workload overwhelms you. You don't get to take a coffee break but you can tell ATC to wait. I'm pretty sure if you do that much they'll want to have a talk with you.

I'm pretty lucky that my son, who I helped get his private, is now enrolled in a B.S. in Aviation program so in a year or so I'll have the perfect secretary. Also he may be able to help me with the cost of strategic upgrades. If we get an autopilot, he'll probably be the one to pick it out. 

Definitely lack of an autopilot should not dissuade you from getting an instrument rating. Perhaps one of the biggest obstacles for new instrument students is simply getting the aircraft properly trimmed quickly so they can move onto the next task. Its the first obstacle keeping students behind the aircraft, with lack of understanding and proficiency with their avionics second. Using an autopilot for this would do the student a huge disservice since it would merely make them dependent on the AP rather than learn to quickly trim the aircraft on their own. We already have too many pilots that are overly dependent on their AP's that have gotten into the habit of using them from cruise on through the approach. As your training progresses you'll learn to stay ahead of the aircraft with a much higher workload that what you'll actually experience in a typical cross country IFR trip due to the artificial nature of the training environment . Although the more challenging the weather conditions the more difficult the workload can be; especially with turbulence or strong winds added in. But this is why we have personal minimums.

But where autopilots become most important in on longer and longer flight so that the pilot isn't exhausted by the time they arrive at the terminal environment for an approach which will require their full concentration. Its also important in allowing us to monitor weather ahead on long cross country's and enable us to develop diversion plans for enroute weather or our destination . But after you get your IR, you'll be in a better position to set personal minimums based not only on your skills, but also your experience level and your equipment limitations. But certainly as you desire to fly longer trips with weather, an autopilot or another pilot right seat or even a capable right seat pax become more and more vital to keeping the workload manageable. 

 

[Ron McBride]

Also  You need to be able to fly without the autopilot, in case of failure, and just to monitor it for proper function.

And yes, the autopilot helps a lot.   You can even look down to study an approach plate without the plane wondering off.

[Danb]

Sounds like me Mark I've been a great test taker through grad school and the CPA exam, I missed one question in both the PPL and IFR tests to this day I'm still pissed  missing those, yep I'm screwed up.

[Rick Junkin]

8 hours ago, pinerunner said:

I'm working towards my IFR too. My old M20E doesn't have an autopilot and in 1963 they didn't even put in the positive control wing leveler so I'm missing that advantage. I'm on a tight budget so I ponder this question quite a bit. Many say it's very foolish to attempt IFR without an autopilot. I think it's possible but you need to be very careful not to put yourself into a situation where the workload overwhelms you.

If you're comfortable in your airplane and "know the numbers" for each phase of flight, you're way ahead of most going after their instrument rating. You can be asked to operate and show proficiency on every installed piece of equipment on your check ride, so to some degree, simpler can be better from the standpoint of acing the check ride. Training and testing in an airplane of which you are the master is one of the most positive contributors to your success, and if you've been flying years of VFR in the same airplane, you're undoubtably there. I purchased a very simple trainer (AMD CH2000), got to know her for about 80 hours, and then did a self-designed compressed course with a cooperative local CFII and took the IR check ride (at NIGHT, a fun story to share) with minimal stress. No autopilot, no HSI, and no ADF. Of course that airplane is a lot slower than our Mooneys, but being PIC, you can fly your check ride at the speeds you want to, just be certain to brief the check pilot on what you're going to do before you walk out the door. If you have and use an autopilot on the check ride, the examiner will fail it at some point. Depending on the examiner, the most likely time to fail it and other things is during your partial panel non-precision approach... but that is yet ANOTHER story.

IFR with no autopilot? Stay within your personal limits for that configuration and you'll be fine. Get some help from your CFII or another instrument pilot that you trust on determining what those limits should be, and adjust them as you gain proficiency and confidence. And don't forget to adjust them back up when your proficiency (not to be confused with currency) lapses. "Hard" IFR to minimums is possible, and even fun, with adequate proficiency and no autopilot. The instrument rating is a milestone on the way to more learning opportunities, a "license to learn", as my examiner told me when he handed me my ticket.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[jaylw314]

9 hours ago, kortopates said:

Definitely lack of an autopilot should not dissuade you from getting an instrument rating. Perhaps one of the biggest obstacles for new instrument students is simply getting the aircraft properly trimmed quickly so they can move onto the next task. Its the first obstacle keeping students behind the aircraft, with lack of understanding and proficiency with their avionics second. Using an autopilot for this would do the student a huge disservice since it would merely make them dependent on the AP rather than learn to quickly trim the aircraft on their own. We already have too many pilots that are overly dependent on their AP's that have gotten into the habit of using them from cruise on through the approach. As your training progresses you'll learn to stay ahead of the aircraft with a much higher workload that what you'll actually experience in a typical cross country IFR trip due to the artificial nature of the training environment . Although the more challenging the weather conditions the more difficult the workload can be; especially with turbulence or strong winds added in. But this is why we have personal minimums.

Today I almost made an example of myself on how important it is to practice using the autopilot if you have it.  I was making a point of running an approach entirely with the autopilot, and I was given instructions to descend to 5000' until crossing the IAF.  Of course, I set in 5000' on my KAS-297B and set the vertical speed to -600 fpm.  I then hit the VS button, but not the ARM button.  So a minute later, I'm doing my scan and all of a sudden, I notice I'm at 4900' and descending.  I panicked and hauled back on the yoke, then realized I should press the AP disconnect button, and then realized I was spamming the mic button instead of the AP disconnect.  Then I spent the next minute flailing around trying to get the AP set up for the approach again, since I had just turned everything off.

Long story short, I need to get the autopilot into my IFR flow and checklists.  If you have an autopilot, you need to include SOME amount of practice with it in your training, otherwise, it will be harder to reliably incorporate them later.

Edited February 3, 2018 by jaylw314

[kortopates]

28 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Today I almost made an example of myself on how important it is to practice using the autopilot if you have it.  I was making a point of running an approach entirely with the autopilot, and I was given instructions to descend to 5000' until crossing the IAF.  Of course, I set in 5000' on my KAS-297B and set the vertical speed to -600 fpm.  I then hit the VS button, but not the ARM button.  So a minute later, I'm doing my scan and all of a sudden, I notice I'm at 4900' and descending.  I panicked and hauled back on the yoke, then realized I should press the AP disconnect button, and then realized I was spamming the mic button instead of the AP disconnect.  Then I spent the next minute flailing around trying to get the AP set up for the approach again, since I had just turned everything off.

Long story short, I need to get the autopilot into my IFR flow and checklists.  If you have an autopilot, you need to include SOME amount of practice with it in your training, otherwise, it will be harder to reliably incorporate them later.

Absolutely, just as with an aircraft that is equipped with GPS, if your aircraft is equipped with an AP, it has to be part of your instrument training. DPE is tasked with ensuring you know how to use all of your equipment. As such he'll have you demonstrate its use on an approach and with a good 2 or 3 axis autopilot expect it will be on a precision approach so you can demonstrate how to properly intercept GS in addition to intercepting final. But all of this should be done well after the student can fly the approach without the AP. No question there is a lot more work to getting an instrument rating in a technically advanced aircraft with great avionics including WAAS GPS and a good auto-pilot. And that's the ideal time to learn to master the equipment. Its just that we all don't have the luxury of having such great equipment when we did our training. So many of us will have to learn the advanced stuff later, but it is a license to learn after all. But these days, unlike when I did mine on 2 VORs and DME (and without an AP), the standard is with WAAS, but still many, if not most, compete their IR with out an AP.

[kpaul]

10 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

how important it is to practice using the autopilot if you have it. 

In the past 6 years the plane I was flying has trended back and forth on requirements during pilot proficiency rides.  First was the thought that everyone relied on the GPS and autopilot too much and had lost the ability to hand fly an approach using raw Navaids.  It was a problem in the community, so in good military fashion we quickly over reacted and after a few years it turned out that the average guy would make errors if flying the approach using automation, similar to what you faced.  Now cooler heads prevailed and we are required to hand fly an approach and fly a coupled approach each time.   Our pilots also fly this IPC type flights every 30-45 days, in addition to other mission training rides and are probably averaging 700 hours per year in the plane.