To spend or not to spend

[Htwjr]

I have had a 67C for 3 years and have really enjoyed it.  It has about 500 sfrm and I had the prop overhauled and changed the hub to no eddy.  I have converted it to alternator and installed new tinted side windows.  I got my IR in it last year but it only has VOR, ILS and LOC capability.  So far I have been able to fly everywhere I wanted to but I always picked the weather carefully.   I would like to upgrade the avionics but I hate to spend more than the plane is worth.  I really like the efficiency, simplicity and useful load which is 1000lbs.  I am concerned whether the C is a good IFR platform since carb ice is a issue.  I really don't like the AI or the HI ( mine reads backwards) and would like a G5 or two.  What should the upgrade path be?  Engine monitor, G5, Certified GPS, ADSB, Auto pilot.  Or should I look for a plane that already has some of these things.  I would not mind spending 15-20k for now, which I realize is not much, but would like to know that I am at least spending it in the right places.  Thanks

[rbridges]

If you plan to keep the plane for a loong time, prep it the way you want.  If you go through planes every few years, wait and buy one set up the way you like.  If going /G improves your capability and you feel it's worth it, who's to say your wrong. 

 

My C model flies IFR a bunch. I do watch out for icing, but carb heat has not been an issue knock on wood.  IMO I wouldn't do it unless I knew the plane had a solid foundation ie no corrosion, good tanks AND I was satisfied with the plane's performance for my missions. 

 

I would go engine monitor, GPS, autopilot. Adsb mandate is in 2 years, so that's something to consider. 

[INA201]

Let's just say for example your plane is worth 45 for conversation sake. You can get a very nicely equipped C or F for 25 more and the work is done. If you love your plane there is inherent value that is more or less emotional and is what leads many to upgrade the aircraft they have come attached to. Buying a plane already equipped is the most economical route typically.  I really like my plane and have chosen to impractically upgrade it and will never get the money back.  Man it's a lot of fun!!

[Mooneymite]

I, too, have a C.

It is a great airplane and a lot of bang for the buck.

However, virtually anything you do to a C will put you (more?) up-side-down financially.

If you are going to do serious up-grades, I would suggest selling the C and either buying something already equipped, or something that warrants an up-grade.  Putting $20K (which doesn't get you much!) into a $40K C will get you a $45K C.  It just doesn't compute.

[Mooneymite]

I understand there's a Mooney owner up near Philadelphia who has poured a ton of money into an F model.  Reportedly, his glass is seriously out of date, but serviceable.

He's thinking seriously of going to an all Garmin panel because of advice from a dentist.

Offer him your C as a "great, low-priced up-grade platform" + $10K and he's sure to go for it.

@Marauder???

[1964-M20E]

The biggest thing is how long you plan on keeping it and how much you fly.  If you are flying 100 hours a year +/- and plan on keeping for at least another 5 years then do it.  You will get the enjoyment of the new toys for that time.  No you will not get you money out of it but any upgrades to avionics or anything else for that matter in any plane you will not get you money back.  Just like when you drive that new car off the lot it will never be worth what you paid for it ever again.

Do you have the shot gun panel or is a standard  6 pack?

If standard 6 pack I'd keep the flight instruments and work on GPS, ADSB  first.  Going with a G-1 engine monitor will tell you most everything you need to know about the engine go up to the G-2 and you get fuel flow and tantalizer as well for a reasonable cost the remaining stock gauges are fine for everything else.  Yes a new JPI would be very nice but lots of AMUs.

Auto pilot wait until the new STCs are available and see where the cost go.  Getting an STEC 30 right now is expensive.  Like nothing else in aviation is expensive.

 

 

 

[Hank]

Yes, a C is a good IFR platform. Upgrade it with whatever will make your flights easier and more enjoyable. Don't think to recoup upgrade expenses, just upgrade as you want to fly.

Remember that buying a plane that someone else has upgraded costs less than doing the upgrades yourself, but it may not have exactly what you are looking for.

Which path sounds like less trouble? That is often the deciding factor . . . Both will cost time and money, and don't forget what may be required fixing your "new" plane after you buy it.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Hank

[bradp]

Agree it all depends on how long and how much you fly.  I recently made the decision I was going to keep my J for the foreseeable future (until my family literally outgrows it).... at least for the next 5-6 years.  Then I’ll be looking for barn doors or a semi cabin class aircraft.  So I decided I wanted to do some upgrades and I’d have time to enjoy them.  

I like DIY projects as long as I can do as good a job as I’d pay someone else to do... so I decided to learn avionics.  I put less than 10k into my panel with some typical mooney driver cheap bastardization- but it is going to work just fine and the project is modular (ie I can keep adding pretty easily as my next additions are pre wired).  There are many ways to skin a cat- not all of them require dropping 20-100k at an avionics shop.  

The only thing I’d advise to put on the brakes is 1) I’d you think you’ll get any type of ROI on avionics upgrades - you really won’t or 2) you don’t have at least a wing leveler autopilot wait at least a year before committing to any avionics upgrades.  An IFR platform really should have at least a single axis AP for workload reduction... if you can’t  get a reasonably priced one and this isn’t your forever plane then I’d consider selling

good luck  

Brad 

 

[Hector]

A question I have often pondered myself. I have a 67 C that I like very much with standard 6 pack and Brittain AP. Very nice IFR platform. But I’m getting the itch to do a major avionics change. Dual G5’s, GTN 650, GTX 345, and GFC500 when available. Does it make sense to drop that in a C? Should I be looking instead for a nice F that has most of this already in it? It’s just my wife and I but the extra space in the F might be nice for those times when needed. Still pondering the issue so I’ve decided to only get it ADSB out compliant for now until I make up my mind.


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[steingar]

I have to agree with the folks saying it’s only worth it if this is your forever airplane. The problem is you’ll not find too many C’s that have been so upgraded, and when you do they’re likely to carry a premium on price.  If you really like your airframe then sure, why not, so long as you’re comfortable eating the money spent. I’m eating more than a few AMUs myself, but I’m cool with it.

if you’re that sold on the better avionics then it might be time to seek out a newer airframe. Even so, an F or J carrying that kind of panel will also carry quite the premium.  No way you get that kind of capability without paying unless you go experimental.

[carusoam]

Hmmmm....

We all have had the same challenge... 

It doesn't matter what airframe you have.

One way to look at it...

Is This your forever plane?

• If yes, add the updates you will use.  Get the full value out of it by using it.

 

• If no, save the dough for getting to the forever plane....

 

There is always a strange piece of logic that goes with an old plane.  

• Some people balk at Buying and installing a radio that costs 50% of the price of the plane...
• years later you see many other people do this...
• You will probably look back after a bunch of years with 20/20 hindsight... knowing what would have been best for you...

What does the price of a piece of technology have to do with the cost of the airframe?

now, go compare what the cost of the next level airplane for you is... one that is already updated the way you want it.  Will that be your forever Mooney?

I started with a C and moved up to the R when the family was growing up.... It is a lot easier to make the decision/commitment when you have done it once already...

How is that for logic?

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[DXB]

Fly it for 25 years and your avionics will be worthless junk, but you extracted their value in good use so no complaints.  If you sell your bird well before that, you take a big hit on your investment no matter the model. It's a bigger hit on a vintage bird, but is it really THAT different? There was someone selling an E model for 180k with the  modern best of everything for avionics.  I doubt they got anything close to that, but I also bet it brought a whole lot more than the $50k that some here suggest as the absolute cap for short body prices. 

Unless you're itching to sell it, don't hesitate to spend money within your means  to make it into the plane you want.

After a major avionics investment, my C is a magnificent traveling machine that I hope will serve me for many years to come, and it is still the great value it was when I bought it.  For the total money spent, I could have bought a decent J model, but I would still have to bleed money into it to make it the bird I want.

[Htwjr]

I have done most of the work on the plane under my mechanics supervision and have done owner assisted annuals so I feel like I know the plane pretty good.  It would take a while for me to feel as good about a different plane.  Most of my flying is me and the wife.  I have had 4 adults a couple of times.  I would really like to the ability for 4 plus baggage but I guess that would take a 6 place plane and I dont want the extra cost and expense when not needed.  I guess the best thing is to upgrade mine like I want and find a 6 place that I can borrow or rent.  Mine does have the PC which works good. On cross countrys I can get it to fly headings pretty much hands off.  It also has an EI fuel totalizer.  

I have been looking for a 430w but the price seems to be around 7k. I would also need an indicator which is another 2k then installation cost.  It seems for a little extra I could get a new GTN 650.  When you start considering upgrades everything is always a little extra.  

I appreciate the replies.  I think I will start the upgrades and try to fly the value out of it for the next few years. 

[Mooneymite]

Actually, the ~$10K upgrade to a WAAS GPS is one of the few up-grades that might make sense for a C.

It actually gives your bird additional capabilities (sole-source and LPV approaches) and it can feed the ADS-B upgrade when that happens.

[N6758N]

The C is a great IFR platform. It is worth spending the money on your own plane if you've already got all the mechanical bugs worked out and it is a clean airframe (corrosion). FYI in nearly 500 hrs of flying my C, across the country, up and down the east coast, IMC included; I have never had to pull the carb heat other than on run-up. Others like @gsxrpilot have had similiar experiences with lack of carb ice. 

[1964-M20E]

9 hours ago, Htwjr said:

I have done most of the work on the plane under my mechanics supervision and have done owner assisted annuals so I feel like I know the plane pretty good.  It would take a while for me to feel as good about a different plane.  Most of my flying is me and the wife.  I have had 4 adults a couple of times.  I would really like to the ability for 4 plus baggage but I guess that would take a 6 place plane and I dont want the extra cost and expense when not needed.  I guess the best thing is to upgrade mine like I want and find a 6 place that I can borrow or rent.  Mine does have the PC which works good. On cross countrys I can get it to fly headings pretty much hands off.  It also has an EI fuel totalizer.  

I have been looking for a 430w but the price seems to be around 7k. I would also need an indicator which is another 2k then installation cost.  It seems for a little extra I could get a new GTN 650.  When you start considering upgrades everything is always a little extra.  

I appreciate the replies.  I think I will start the upgrades and try to fly the value out of it for the next few years. 

I'm sure you have looked at them but don't rule out the IFD 550 it gives you a back up AHRS built in and a slightly smaller foot print on the panel than the 650.  Avidyne also has a remote transponder that is really nice opens up more panel space for you as well.

 

Post some pics of your panel and you will have not problem finding people willing to spend your money.

 

 

[N6758N]

6 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

I'm sure you have looked at them but don't rule out the IFD 550 it gives you a back up AHRS built in and a slightly smaller foot print on the panel than the 650.  Avidyne also has a remote transponder that is really nice opens up more panel space for you as well.

The 550 is smaller than the 650? Huh?

[1964-M20E]

3 minutes ago, N6758N said:

The 550 is smaller than the 650? Huh?

Oh I'm sorry I'm thinking in  the 750 the IFD 550 is the same size as at Garmin 540.

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

In other positive news...

If you fly a C...

* Consider getting a carb temp sensor to add to your tool bucket.

It is the best way to defend your bird against the rare event of carb ice.

* Also Consider getting an IR.

It is a great way to avoid the high RH area that hangs out just below the layer of clouds that is keeping you from climbing higher.

Spend wisely...

• An engine monitor will save you money in the long run.
• Adding an additional carb temp TC isn't very much.
• The IR lasts a lifetime, and is independent of the plane you fly.

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

12 minutes ago, carusoam said:

* Consider getting a carb temp sensor to add to your tool bucket.

I'm not sure how we got from IFR equipage to carb heat, and stewardesses....

Only on Mooneyspace.  

3 hours ago, N6758N said:

 ...I have never had to pull the carb heat other than on run-up. ...

 

[N6758N]

1 minute ago, Mooneymite said:

I'm not sure how we got from IFR equipage to carb heat, and stewardesses....

Only on Mooneyspace.  

 

" I am concerned whether the C is a good IFR platform since carb ice is a issue"

 

That's where Gus 

[jaylw314]

19 hours ago, Htwjr said:

 I am concerned whether the C is a good IFR platform since carb ice is a issue. 

Don't know about the C in particular, but I can't imagine carburetion is a huge factor in flying IFR.  You'd use it if you suspected carb ice even with no visible moisture, which is what you'd be doing in VMC anyway.  Carb ice might be more common in IMC, but I haven't read anything suggesting it is a frequent occurrence in IFR flying

Edited January 25, 2018 by jaylw314

[gsxrpilot]

The question I would be asking myself is, "Am I satisfied to fly a C for the foreseeable future or is this a stepping stone to something else?" I was very happy with my C until I started flying back and forth to Colorado and decided I really needed (wanted) a turbo.

If you're happy with the C, then I wouldn't hesitate to spend within your comfort range, to upgrade it. Airplane's are not investments and the usage, utility, and enjoyment is certainly worth something. 

This is the panel I eventually had in my C and it was an absolute joy to fly and a very capable IFR platform. Spend the money... enjoy your Mooney.

[Mooneymite]

48 minutes ago, N6758N said:

" I am concerned whether the C is a good IFR platform since carb ice is a issue"

That's where Gus 

Ah!

But what does carb heat have to do with IFR?  Carb ice can, and does, form in clear skies as well as cloudy ones.  This is not the case with a intake ice on a fuel injected engine.  Carb ice is a different animal.

If you look at the carb ice probablity charts, visible moisture is not a factor.

[jaylw314]

31 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Ah!

But what does carb heat have to do with IFR?  Carb ice can, and does, form in clear skies as well as cloudy ones.  This is not the case with a intake ice on a fuel injected engine.  Carb ice is a different animal.

If you look at the carb ice probablity charts, visible moisture is not a factor.

Although I should point out that high humidity is frequently associated with visible moisture, so they're indirectly related.