Between two Fs

[Ron McBride]

Shadrich, I am sorry and goofed, many apologies.

 

Also electric vs manual gear.   Has Mooney built more electric gear planes or manual?

Why are all 1969 and newer electric?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, mooniac15u said:

I liked the manual gear on my M20D but there is no doubt that the electric gear on my M20J is easier.  There is less physical movement which can be hazardous in instrument conditions.  You don't have to make sure the floor area around the bar is clear.  You don't have to worry about accidentally unbuckling seatbelts.  Even with the preload set perfectly there is more energy expended moving the bar than moving a lever.  There's nothing wrong with the manual gear and it's not difficult to operate but the electric gear is easier.

Thanks for the insight, I’m probably a bit out of touch. After 15 years the action has become so rote that I only think about gear up or gear down and not the mechanical action that takes place.  It was certainly different when I first started in the Mooney but now I don’t really notice one being easier than the other, just different. 

I would recommend that anyone flying a manual gear bird incorporate “clearing the J-bar” as part of the pre-takeoff check list. 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

And no looking down to secure the gear on an instrument departure, just reach up in front of your eyes and move the round lever / button / switch.

Spoken like someone with little to no manual gear time.  There is absolutely...positively...no reason to look at one’s Johnson in flight. Do you look at the brake, gas and clutch peddles when driving a manual?

[N6758N]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Spoken like someone with little to no manual gear time.  There is absolutely...positively...no reason to look at one’s Johnson in flight. Do you look at the brake, gas and clutch peddles when driving a manual?

 that is for sure Ross! You will definitely know it if the gear is not secure!

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, N803RM said:

Shadrich, I am sorry and goofed, many apologies.

 

Also electric vs manual gear.   Has Mooney built more electric gear planes or manual?

Why are all 1969 and newer electric?

Electric gear was offered as an option in 69 and became standard the following year. The 745 F models built in ‘66, ‘67 and ‘68 were all J-bar aircraft as were the rest of the model offerings with the exclusion of the fixed gear D model and the M22 Mustang which debuted in ‘66 and was offered in electric gear only. I don’t know what the electric/manual mix was in 69. If we assume they were all electric, that would be 489 F models with electric gear. Many more Fs were built with J-bars, but who knows how many were converted to electric, certainly more than a few.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Shadrach

[mooniac15u]

21 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Our C is manual and our J is obviously electric. It is hard to get easier than flipping an electric switch, but given a choice I would take the Johnson bar every time.

I think Mooney went electric in '69 because at the time there was a perception that that was more modern.  That's all. KISS, though, as far as I am concerned. 

Jim

I certainly didn't mind having the manual gear.  I also don't miss it.  It seems like a lot of folks on MS have some kind of emotional attachment to the manual system that I don't really understand.  Of course they also seem to have odd obsessions with British sports cars and large women. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

That’s similar to my story. My Dad bought our 67F in 1968 from Henry Weber Aircraft. It was a demonstrator with somewhere around 100hrs on the tach. I know it’s history well and have all logs. 

IIRC Mooney specifies a range of 4-5 pumps from zero to full flaps.   I can say with certainty that every hydraulic flap system I’ve encountered on a Mooney require precisely (and I mean precisely) 4 pumps from zero to fully deployed if the system is tight and properly bled.

My POH says 4 1/2 pumps for full flaps. Mine seems to be right at about 4 1/3 for full flaps.

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

My POH says 4 1/2 pumps for full flaps. Mine seems to be right at about 4 1/3 for full flaps.

Yes, I’ve seen that in the ‘65 MY POH.  I don’t think that flap travel varied from year to year beyond fine tuning for rigging and I don’t think the volume of the pump or the actuator changed, but I don’t know for sure.  I don’t recall the Model years of all of the planes who’s flaps I’ve been associated with. However, I don’t remember a single one that took more than four pumps to full deflection. My bird has no margin of give on the fifth pump. First pump, second pump, third pump, fourth pump and it’s hydrolocked (and I mean rock solid from the very top of the fifth pump) from further movement.

perhaps OAT makes a difference, but I’ve never noticed it.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Shadrach

[Browncbr1]

54 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

I certainly didn't mind having the manual gear.  I also don't miss it.  It seems like a lot of folks on MS have some kind of emotional attachment to the manual system that I don't really understand.  Of course they also seem to have odd obsessions with British sports cars and large women. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You will develop emotion for the Jbar once you’re in an aircraft that gear won’t come down, up or can’t get confirmation that the gear is down during an imc approach...  yea there is a manual over ride,  but that definitely isn’t routine operations when you’re in the soup.  It’s also not having to maintain or carry extra stuff

[1964-M20E]

Simple buy both fly about 20 hours in each one and the sell the own you don't want.  You get an extended test drive.  Somewhat like being married and having a girlfriend at the same time but less expensive to get rid of one of them. 

 

 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Spoken like someone with little to no manual gear time.  There is absolutely...positively...no reason to look at one’s Johnson in flight. Do you look at the brake, gas and clutch peddles when driving a manual?

You can lock it into "Up" position on the floor behind your seatbelt without ever glancing at it? I don't look at the pedals because my right foot never leaves the gas, my left foot is  ever mkre than a couple inches from the clutch, they only move a few inches and nkne have to be latched into position at the end of the motion.

But you're right, I've never even ridden in a manual Mooney. How many gear swings until you can lock into the Up position without ever looking? 

[gsxrpilot]

14 minutes ago, Hank said:

How many gear swings until you can lock into the Up position without ever looking? 

1

It's like pulling up the hand brake on my old MG. You don't have to look at it, it only goes where it's supposed to go. 

Same with the Johnson bar. Just push it down until it clicks into place. There isn't any other option. 

The things I liked about the Mooney manual gear... 

• When it's down and locked, you know it's down and locked. There are no light bulbs to be burnt out, no relying on a gear horn that has come disconnected. No checking a mirror to verify that at least one of the three are down.
• No motor to burn out, no gear ratios to change.
• No emergency gear extension mechanism or process to check, use, know, practice.
• The "cool" factor. Kinda like being the only guy at the club who can drive a stick shift.

[1964-M20E]

33 minutes ago, Hank said:

 

But you're right, I've never even ridden in a manual Mooney. How many gear swings until you can lock into the Up position without ever looking? 

I don't know but you could ask the owl from the tootsie pop commercials.

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

17 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

1

It's like pulling up the hand brake on my old MG. You don't have to look at it, it only goes where it's supposed to go. 

Same with the Johnson bar. Just push it down until it clicks into place. There isn't any other option. 

The things I liked about the Mooney manual gear... 

• When it's down and locked, you know it's down and locked. There are no light bulbs to be burnt out, no relying on a gear horn that has come disconnected. No checking a mirror to verify that at least one of the three are down.
• No motor to burn out, no gear ratios to change.
• No emergency gear extension mechanism or process to check, use, know, practice.
• The "cool" factor. Kinda like being the only guy at the club who can drive a stick shift.

And no $1,000 "no back spring" that should be replaced that the only known failure has been a new one.

Tom

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Spoken like someone with little to no manual gear time.  There is absolutely...positively...no reason to look at one’s Johnson in flight. Do you look at the brake, gas and clutch peddles when driving a manual?

 

49 minutes ago, Hank said:

You can lock it into "Up" position on the floor behind your seatbelt without ever glancing at it? I don't look at the pedals because my right foot never leaves the gas, my left foot is  ever mkre than a couple inches from the clutch, they only move a few inches and nkne have to be latched into position at the end of the motion.

But you're right, I've never even ridden in a manual Mooney. How many gear swings until you can lock into the Up position without ever looking? 

I'm not sure exactly when but it wasn't long after I started flying mine that I quit looking to see if it was up and locked. I probably looked down the first couple of times and that was all. As Paul said, when the bar is on the floor and locked you know it, it either is or it isn't, and there isn't any place for it to go except in the hole so you aren't exactly fishing around for the right place.

I do still look at it when I drop the gear as I like to see the thumb button pop out when it locks in place, then I give it one more good tug to be sure it is locked in place.

[mooniac15u]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

You will develop emotion for the Jbar once you’re in an aircraft that gear won’t come down, up or can’t get confirmation that the gear is down during an imc approach...  yea there is a manual over ride,  but that definitely isn’t routine operations when you’re in the soup.  It’s also not having to maintain or carry extra stuff

I had a mechanical failure in my manual gear M20D that prevented my gear from coming down. So, I don't think I'm going to develop that bond. 

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

I had a mechanical failure in my manual gear M20D that prevented my gear from coming down. So, I don't think I'm going to develop that bond. 

You might be the only one. What happened?

[Browncbr1]

Yea, what happened,.. never heard of jbar failure before, other than operator error. 

[SantosDumont]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

How many gear swings until you can lock into the Up position without ever looking? 

Maybe about 10 swings before I never had to look at it. Just give the bar a tug upwards to check that it is actually locked. Also if it’s not locked the jbar comes flying forward and takes out your right elbow. You only have to have that happen once and then you learn to pull up on the bar to make sure it’s locked in.  I have muscle memory for the action now so I don’t even think about it, just do it. 

[mooniac15u]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You might be the only one. What happened?

Maintenance induced failure. One of the mains got wedged in the gear bay and wasn't going to move. You can apparently put a lot of force into the system with the J-bar because one of the pushrods broke when I tried to put the gear down. At that point I had one main and the nose gear down and one main still retracted but no way to know that. A pilot on the ground notified me of my problem and I ultimately retracted the gear and landed on the belly. 

There are also other failure modes such as cracking at the bottom of the J-bar and the bar not getting fully locked into the block. 

My incident didn't actually lower my opinion of the manual gear overall. I still like manual gear Mooneys and I know the system is very reliable. 

[mooniac15u]

5 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Yea, what happened,.. never heard of jbar failure before, other than operator error. 

Mine was definitely an unusual case but there is a known issue with the J-bar. 

 

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Maintenance induced failure. One of the mains got wedged in the gear bay and wasn't going to move. You can apparently put a lot of force into the system with the J-bar because one of the pushrods broke when I tried to put the gear down. At that point I had one main and the nose gear down and one main still retracted but no way to know that. A pilot on the ground notified me of my problem and I ultimately retracted the gear and landed on the belly. 

There are also other failure modes such as cracking at the bottom of the J-bar and the bar not getting fully locked into the block. 

My incident didn't actually lower my opinion of the manual gear overall. I still like manual gear Mooneys and I know the system is very reliable. 

So this particular failure had nothing to do with the type of gear? Whether your arm or an electric motor the result would have been similar. I’m betting the breaker would have continued to pop without breaking a rod. 

Were you able to raise the nose and the main that deployed when you broke the push rod. I have to imagine landing on the nose and one main would present a new set of problems.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Shadrach

[Browncbr1]

Yea, I remember the block wear issue from 50 years of steel rubbing on aluminum..   I had planningnon replacing my block when I do biscuits and tighten up the steering. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

You can lock it into "Up" position on the floor behind your seatbelt without ever glancing at it? I don't look at the pedals because my right foot never leaves the gas, my left foot is  ever mkre than a couple inches from the clutch, they only move a few inches and nkne have to be latched into position at the end of the motion.

But you're right, I've never even ridden in a manual Mooney. How many gear swings until you can lock into the Up position without ever looking? 

The best analogy I can make is cycling a bolt action rifle. Whether a Sako 85, a Rem 700 or a vintage Mooney. I could cycle all of them with my eyes closed.

[mooniac15u]

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

So this particular failure had nothing to do with the type of gear? Whether your arm or an electric motor the result would have been similar. I’m betting the breaker would have continued to pop without breaking a rod. 

Were you able to raise the nose and the main that deployed when you broke the push rod. I have to imagine landing on the nose and one main would present a new set of problems.

That's right, it wasn't related to the manual gear. The difference would be that with an electric system none of the gear would've moved and I (presumably) would have known they weren't down.  I was really just pointing out that the manual gear can and do fail. I had generally considered them failure-proof up until that point  

It only broke one rod connected to the right main gear. The other two went up and down easily after the failure. A pilot friend was at the airport and helped me talk through the options over the radio. There was much discussion of the pros and cons of keeping the two gear down vs raising them. If I had two mains I would've used them but the assymetry seemed dangerous so I went with the belly landing.