Jump to content

Between two Fs


Recommended Posts

I’ve seen Glenn’s plane.  It is very nice.   I’m partial to manual gear 67 F models.  His is pretty quick as I recall.   He is also a very nice guy and he seemed to take extra good care of it.     To me, he seemed like the kind of guy who would tell you if something isn’t right.     I wouldn’t let location get in the way of your decision.    I bet you could find someone on here like me who would fly it out to you if that’s what you need. ;)

The value of what is in Glenn’s panel far outweighs the difference in interior costs if you are comparing the two planes.  You also said you would have to cut a new panel for the slanted six pack.   

When I bought my plane from Minnesota, the seller flying it to my home in TN was kind of a litmus test for me that all was safe.   Use skymiles and hotel points to go look at it. :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Manual gear.

Plus HSI, backup electric AI, S-Tec 55W A/P, JPI EDM 900, Dual GNS430W, PS 8000BT, GTX330ES  with ADS-B Out.

After reading all the responses and answers... I'm still with @KLRDMD on this. For me it wouldn't even be close. I'd buy the '67.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/16/2018 at 12:17 AM, chrixxer said:

Assume they're both solid, clean planes and that isn't a factor.

The ‘67.  Hands down no-brainer.  Better panel.  Manual gear and flaps.  ‘67 was a better year for Mooney than ‘69.  ‘69 was cost saving measures.  You can pick and do your interior.  Pull out the seats and send them.  Just not a big deal.  Speaking of BIG DEALS...Corrosion or lack there of should NEVER be assumed.  Pull the interiors and see the side-cage and lower tubes.  ‘69 had poorer rust prevention.

The ‘67 has been flying more and didn’t need a top prematurely...somebody has a hanger queen.  DO NOT be swayed by leather.  Get brand new leather the way YOU want it.

Get the ‘67, if only for the cool vacuum retract step....

edit on that “twisted wing comment”...

Edited by MyNameIsNobody
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Glenn said:

I apologize for the drama, but I have decided to wait until Fall to sell my plane (67). I still have some flying I want to do this Summer. 

Good for you Glenn! Ill see you at SNF! You have owned that F longer than I have had a pilot's license...dont be in a rush to get rid of it!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Glenn said:

I apologize for the drama, but I have decided to wait until Fall to sell my plane (67). I still have some flying I want to do this Summer. 

So, the decision just got a lot easier :). Another 6+ months of renting really changes the calculus. An Arrow 'round these parts is $195/hr wet, of which at least $80 is FBO/leaseback owner profit; my trip to Sedona alone was almost $1400. When even a Warrior rents for $169/hr, that IFR burger run can be an $828 outing... Adds up quick!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am also looking to buy a M20F and I have been looking for several months.  Since I am upgrading from my RIP 63 M20C I would also want a Johnson bar.  I have only looked at controller, barnstormers, here and tradeaplane.  Anywhere else to look you might recommend to look? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, wburger1 said:

I am also looking to buy a M20F and I have been looking for several months.  Since I am upgrading from my RIP 63 M20C I would also want a Johnson bar.  I have only looked at controller, barnstormers, here and tradeaplane.  Anywhere else to look you might recommend to look? 

ASO.com   Aviation Shopper.com  Sometimes on Facebook.  All 69's and newer are electric gear.  Electric gear is simpler if you are making an IFR departure, and definitely easier if you are becoming more vintage.    Mine has had new gears installed several years ago.  If interested inquire.  Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/15/2018 at 10:34 PM, chrixxer said:

The hydraulic flaps are okay but not my first choice (having spent $400 to replace an o-ring that caused them to retract by themselves on short final, and they still weren't quite right ( an extra pump and a half was needed to get them halfway down).

i don't worry about the fixed step on the '69, in fact I prefer it to the maintenance-required retractable step.

I’m betting there’s more to the $400 O-ring story. The only O-rings that would cause the flaps to retract (as in not stay down) are located on the actuator piston Which has two rubber O-rings and one leather O-ring in the center. O-ring failure typically causes minor seepage but has little effect on operation. What’s more likely is the cable to the release came loose and ceased to actuate the cam that unseats the check valve. If this happened with the cam in a certain position it would cause the flaps to bleed down slowly.

Perhaps it’s subjective, but after getting to know the hydraulic flap system both operationally and mechanically (I’ve completely overhauled mine and helped several others troubleshoot their systems), I think it’s one of the most reliable systems ever installed in an aircraft. Most functioned flawlessly for decades with no maintenance.  Most of the systems that have problems (overly fast retraction, spongy handles) have been “worked on” by people unfamiliar with the system. 

My retracable step turned 50 this past year. No mx other than lube and still performing perfectly. 

Do you have empty weight numbers for each machine? It’s be interesting to see the difference between an all manual and all electric F model. 

I would vote for 67. It was one of Mooney’s most successful years in terms of production. The twist wing has no perceptible benefits that I have seen, but the manual flap and gear systems are about the most reliable you will find on an aircraft.  The 67s also have flush rivets and panel fitment. Cost-cutting in 69 meant less expensive hardware and less detailed sheet metal fitment.

Edited by Shadrach
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I’m betting there’s more to the $400 O-ring story. The only O-rings that would cause the flaps to retract (as in not stay down) are located on the actuator piston Which has two rubber O-rings and one leather O-ring in the center. O-ring failure typically causes minor seepage but has little effect on operation. What’s more likely is the cable to the release came loose and ceased to actuate the cam that unseats the check valve. If this happened with the cam in a certain position it would cause the flaps to bleed down slowly.

Perhaps it’s subjective, but after getting to know the hydraulic flap system both operationally and mechanically (I’ve completely overhauled mine and helped several others troubleshoot their systems), I think it’s one of the most reliable systems ever installed in an aircraft. Most functioned flawlessly for decades with no maintenance.  Most of the systems that have problems (overly fast retraction, spongy handles) have been “worked on” by people unfamiliar with the system. 

My retracable step turned 50 this past year. No mx other than lube and still performing perfectly. 

Do you have empty weight numbers for each machine? It’s be interesting to see the difference between an all manual and all electric F model. 

I would vote for 67. It was one of Mooney’s most successful years in terms of production. The twist wing has no perceptible benefits that I have seen.  But the manual flap and gear systems are about the most reliable you will find on an aircraft.  The 67s also have flush rivets and panel panel fitment. Cost-cutting in 69 meant less expensive hardware and less detailed sheet metal fitment.

In the 33 years that I have owned my ‘67F, the flaps have been trouble free.  I had o-rings replaced once for a little seepage. Two pumps for take-off, two more for full-flaps to land.  I have also had a similar, trouble free, experience with the step.  Although when I had the plane at Britain many years ago for an altitude hold install, I believe they replaced the tape around the step-bellows.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Glenn said:

In the 33 years that I have owned my ‘67F, the flaps have been trouble free.  I had o-rings replaced once for a little seepage. Two pumps for take-off, two more for full-flaps to land.  I have also had a similar, trouble free, experience with the step.  Although when I had the plane at Britain many years ago for an altitude hold install, I believe they replaced the tape around the step-bellows.

That’s similar to my story. My Dad bought our 67F in 1968 from Henry Weber Aircraft. It was a demonstrator with somewhere around 100hrs on the tach. I know it’s history well and have all logs. 

IIRC Mooney specifies a range of 4-5 pumps from zero to full flaps.   I can say with certainty that every hydraulic flap system I’ve encountered on a Mooney require precisely (and I mean precisely) 4 pumps from zero to fully deployed if the system is tight and properly bled.

Edited by Shadrach
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am the owner of the 69F.  It is still available, $78,0000.00.   I flew the plane for almost 2 hours today, had a blast.  I have several interested For additional information see:  https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/23430425/1969-mooney-m20f-exec-21 please contact me at N9154V@aol.com or 559 577-2398.

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, N803RM said:

ASO.com   Aviation Shopper.com  Sometimes on Facebook.  All 69's and newer are electric gear.  Electric gear is simpler if you are making an IFR departure, and definitely easier if you are becoming more vintage.    Mine has had new gears installed several years ago.  If interested inquire.  Ron

How is it easier? My manual retraction takes about a second and is complete before I’m through 50’AGL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, N803RM said:

The empty weight on mu 69F, with electric gear and flaps, still has the vacuum system etc. is 1697.   1043 useful load.

I doubt that there is much difference with manual gear and hydraulic flaps.

Ron

That’s a very respectable number. I don’t think the difference is huge, but I’d like to know what it is. My useful is 1060lbs. If I dumped some of my heavier avionics and converted to an alternator I would be flirting with 1080lbs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That’s a very respectable number. I don’t think the difference is huge, but I’d like to know what it is. My useful is 1060lbs. If I dumped some of my heavier avionics and converted to an alternator I would be flirting with 1080lbs.

That makes a real good useable weight.  but with your girls?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/17/2018 at 2:12 PM, N803RM said:

That makes a real good useable weight.  but with your girls?

Don't confuse with Marauder. He’s the one that’s into “tons of fun”...

My girls have always been in the 90-130lb range depending on height.

Edited by Shadrach
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

How is it easier? My manual retraction takes about a second and is complete before I’m through 50’AGL.

I liked the manual gear on my M20D but there is no doubt that the electric gear on my M20J is easier.  There is less physical movement which can be hazardous in instrument conditions.  You don't have to make sure the floor area around the bar is clear.  You don't have to worry about accidentally unbuckling seatbelts.  Even with the preload set perfectly there is more energy expended moving the bar than moving a lever.  There's nothing wrong with the manual gear and it's not difficult to operate but the electric gear is easier.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.