DanM20C Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 21 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Our pilot should have had an AoA or he should have flown a Comanche 180. Max flew at ridiculous weights, but he had 2 things going for him. He was mindful of CG and a really good pilot. I think our pilot here would have mucked up a Comanche too. Cheers, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 A few hundred pounds over gross in this case shouldn’t have been a huge obstacle. Max flew some of the records at 100% over gross, but well planned. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 25 minutes ago, M20Doc said: A few hundred pounds over gross in this case shouldn’t have been a huge obstacle. Max flew some of the records at 100% over gross, but well planned. Clarence Who is max? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 58 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Our pilot should have had an AoA or he should have flown a Comanche 180. Clarence No these guys would have been better served with a Toyota Sienna. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 12 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: Who is max? Max Conrad, a famous delivery pilot for Piper who set a number of distance records in various Piper model. Search for his story, “Into the Wind” Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 54 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Max Conrad, a famous delivery pilot for Piper who set a number of distance records in various Piper model. Search for his story, “Into the Wind” Clarence Cool - I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 1000 pounds of people in my 67 C? No problem. I even have enough room for 4 gallons of fuel. I can taxi them all around the airport. There is your airplane ride Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM20C Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, M20Doc said: Max Conrad, a famous delivery pilot for Piper who set a number of distance records in various Piper model. Search for his story, “Into the Wind” Clarence +1 for "Into the Wind" It is a great read. Cheers, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I’ll bet it was fuel contamination that got him, and not all the meat in the aircraft. If it was that badly overweight he’d have not gotten out of ground effect, and if it’d been aft CG everyone would have died in the departure stall. The engineers who built our aircraft were a conservative lot. I bet there’s never been a Mooney so overloaded that it couldn’t climb out. And two behemoths in the front will probably balance out one in back. The weight and balance in what is supposed to be my POH just says not to put the big guys in back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kris_adams Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Ordered "Into the wind". Can't wait to read it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I know the airport manager at Winchester. I fly in and out of there a good bit. There were some pretty serious injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 15 hours ago, steingar said: I’ll bet it was fuel contamination that got him, and not all the meat in the aircraft. If it was that badly overweight he’d have not gotten out of ground effect, and if it’d been aft CG everyone would have died in the departure stall. The engineers who built our aircraft were a conservative lot. I bet there’s never been a Mooney so overloaded that it couldn’t climb out. And two behemoths in the front will probably balance out one in back. The weight and balance in what is supposed to be my POH just says not to put the big guys in back. The CG is right about where the front seats are, so putting big guys in front shouldn't really help, and I'm guessing they did not have the seats all the way forwards. OTOH, putting any big weight in the baggage area would have a much larger effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM20C Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: The CG is right about where the front seats are, so putting big guys in front shouldn't really help, and I'm guessing they did not have the seats all the way forwards. OTOH, putting any big weight in the baggage area would have a much larger effect. This is absolutely true. When I run the numbers (educated guesses on weights of pax and airplane) they were probably 200-300 over gross with a CG 2-3" behind the aft limit at gross. The CG gets more critical as the weight increases. When Max Conrad flew at 100% over gross the left pilot seat was replaced by a fuel tank and he flew from the right, while sitting on a seat shaped fuel tank. At those weights the CG envelope would have been extremely tight. Cheers, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 16 hours ago, steingar said: I bet there’s never been a Mooney so overloaded that it couldn’t climb out Unfortunately there have been some. One can argue it was density altitude or trees or short runway, but we are most in control of weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 1:53 PM, PTK said: The pilot is listed as Brent Pressley. I wonder if there’s any relation to Jerry Pressley... https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001205X00519&ntsbno=MIA99FA140&akey=1 Brent is jerry’s son. He does the same stuff jerry has done for years, based at KMOR. He buys totaled planes from insurance companies and gets them so they will fly well enough to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 hours ago, DanM20C said: When Max Conrad flew at 100% over gross the left pilot seat was replaced by a fuel tank and he flew from the right, while sitting on a seat shaped fuel tank. At those weights the CG envelope would have been extremely tight. I'm not sure why the image of a seat-shaped fuel tank freaks me out, but it does! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Here it is. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM20C Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Here it is. Clarence Looks comfy enough for 58-1/2hrs non stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said: Brent is jerry’s son. He does the same stuff jerry has done for years, based at KMOR. He buys totaled planes from insurance companies and gets them so they will fly well enough to sell. Runs in the family! Gotta wonder at what point does the FAA step in... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 I'm with Clarence and Steingar on this one. If the runway was long enough and the engine was healthy the weight would not have been a big problem. I know a guy who's taken off in a short body Mooney 300# over gross. (That's still under 3000#, no big lift with 180 or 200 HP.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 23 minutes ago, DanM20C said: Looks comfy enough for 58-1/2hrs non stop My butt would fall off...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 48 minutes ago, DanM20C said: Looks comfy enough for 58-1/2hrs non stop No worry of getting comfortable enough to fall asleep. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM20C Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 17 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: I'm with Clarence and Steingar on this one. If the runway was long enough and the engine was healthy the weight would not have been a big problem. I know a guy who's taken off in a short body Mooney 300# over gross. (That's still under 3000#, no big lift with 180 or 200 HP.) I'm with you guys too. 300 over Gross with proper pilot technique and in the proper CG would work out. This particular incident didn't have either. My calculations (based on educated guesses of weights of people and airplane) put the CG around 51-52". The C's aft limit is 49" My guess is the aft CG caused the airplane to "feel" light in pitch. He rotated early and stayed in a high angle of attack/high drag attitude until the crash. Never really leaving ground effect. The airport manager posted this on Beechtalk: "1) Airplane was bought a little less than 3 weeks prior to the accident and relocated to KBGF from KMOR 2) Airplane hadn't flown earlier that day; based purely on observation, this was the new owner's third flight in the aircraft 3) 5 full size adults on the aircraft, one in the baggage compartment (as you could all see from the photo posted on the news site)...my eyeball estimate is between 1100 and 1200 lbs of people 4) Between 30-32 gallons taken from the tanks on scene; that's probably close to all that was onboard +/- 2 gallons 5) Aircraft did not hit any power lines or anything other than the ground, despite what the various news channels reported; however, based on eye witness reports, the occupants are lucky a truck wasn't coming down the perpendicular highway since they wouldn't have had altitude to clear it. 6) All occupants survived with varying injuries; at last check, one was still paralyzed 7) Runway here is 5,002 feet long; eyewitness reports say aircraft became airborne approximately halfway down the runway, making at least 3 attempts to get out of ground effect 8) Aircraft impacted ground and was spun around, coming to rest shortly after having impacted. I estimate it slid less than 200 feet after initial impact. Aircraft was cut into 5 pieces, loaded onto a trailer and hauled off later that evening...quite impressive to watch actually." Cheers, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/17/2018 at 10:45 AM, DanM20C said: I'm with you guys too. 300 over Gross with proper pilot technique and in the proper CG would work out. This particular incident didn't have either. My calculations (based on educated guesses of weights of people and airplane) put the CG around 51-52". The C's aft limit is 49" My guess is the aft CG caused the airplane to "feel" light in pitch. He rotated early and stayed in a high angle of attack/high drag attitude until the crash. Never really leaving ground effect. The airport manager posted this on Beechtalk: "1) Airplane was bought a little less than 3 weeks prior to the accident and relocated to KBGF from KMOR 2) Airplane hadn't flown earlier that day; based purely on observation, this was the new owner's third flight in the aircraft 3) 5 full size adults on the aircraft, one in the baggage compartment (as you could all see from the photo posted on the news site)...my eyeball estimate is between 1100 and 1200 lbs of people 4) Between 30-32 gallons taken from the tanks on scene; that's probably close to all that was onboard +/- 2 gallons 5) Aircraft did not hit any power lines or anything other than the ground, despite what the various news channels reported; however, based on eye witness reports, the occupants are lucky a truck wasn't coming down the perpendicular highway since they wouldn't have had altitude to clear it. 6) All occupants survived with varying injuries; at last check, one was still paralyzed 7) Runway here is 5,002 feet long; eyewitness reports say aircraft became airborne approximately halfway down the runway, making at least 3 attempts to get out of ground effect 8) Aircraft impacted ground and was spun around, coming to rest shortly after having impacted. I estimate it slid less than 200 feet after initial impact. Aircraft was cut into 5 pieces, loaded onto a trailer and hauled off later that evening...quite impressive to watch actually." Cheers, Dan Yikes. If true, at least...well, okay, if true, there's really nothing good there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.