donkaye Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 7:50 PM, DXB said: Yeah my analog altimeter must ultimately concede its hallowed position in the panel to a backup AI/pfd like the Sandia or your L3 when I dump the vac - hopefully soon . But I suspect I'll say something related to "prying from my cold dead hands" when Ben Travis asks about removing my original ASI . I swear I try to look at the flipping numbers on that airspeed tape, but it just skeeves me out on short final every time, and I tear my post-it off the steam gauge to stop hyperventilating. Old habits die hard. Time to split for the Alpha Systems AOA. Pitch to the donut; glance at the airspeed. Perfect landings if perfect slope. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said: Ain't buying it. By your logic (I only aviate in the airport environment) you could put the HSI, ASI, Alt, all on the right side since George is taking care of aviating and navigating. Next time you're getting bounced around in moderate and the AP says "your airplane" please take note of how important you find it to keep OAT in your primary scan. When ATC let me fly right through a building, imbedded cell at night over the KY mountains I had an alligator by the tail keep the wings within 45 deg of level and the AS somewhere between stall and red line. When ATC helpfully advised that I was 3000' high of assign altitude I did 3 seconds of COMMUNICATE to tell him to go away. I'm sure I was polite. It has been many years but I'm positive I did not look at the tach, MP, etc. Ol' George was taking a break. All in fun good buddy. It isn't what you spend most of your time doing, it's what you need when the chips are down. You forget... I fly a turbo. We're way above all the alligators and other stuff. But my point was NOT that I don't need the stuff for aviating/navigating/communicating... but that I spend so much time USING the engine monitor, I like having it in my scan so I'm not spending hours sitting sideways looking across the cockpit at the EDM on the right side. In my M20C the engine monitor was on the right side of the panel. Granted it wasn't the large print edition like your 930. But I spent many hours looking cross cockpit and scheming about moving it to somewhere on the left side. One of the nice things about the Aspen, as you will agree, all the aviating/navigating is in one vertical panel, which allows me room for the EDM-900 to sit squarely in my scan without displacing any of the aviate/navigate/communicate stuff. Which I will agree, when the chips are down, you want them right where you need them. And they are with the Aspen. Don't get me wrong... I love your panel as well. You're just too damn healthy and will probably be flying that E for another 50 years. So I couldn't wait, I had to go build my own panel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/17/2018 at 1:46 PM, gsxrpilot said: The G500/600 installation still requires the other back up instruments such as ASI and Altimeter. With the ESI-500 all legacy instruments can be removed. I don't have one legacy instrument in my panel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted January 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Good night. I have to work for a whole day and I miss 14 new posts. What is this forum coming to? LolSent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcc Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 If only this was a hockey game.... Take it out back and may the best man win. As an aside - the attitude indicator was patented in 1946 - that is likely before any of us was alive - https://www.google.com/patents/US2412961 I would hope that some improvement in instrumentation has happened since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, rpcc said: As an aside - the attitude indicator was patented in 1946 - that is likely before any of us was alive - Speak for yourself. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcc Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Glad you are here! Didn't mean to offend. Fly on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 I got my instrument rating with a 6 pack and 2 VORS (one included an ILS capability). I flew many times across the country in a student's Ovation with basically the same items, but with a GPS. I didn't think much of it. In fact on smooth occasions with him, in the clouds, I would cover, one at a time all six pack instruments, except the altimeter. GPS for navigation and bank by watching TRK and DTK. It actually made scanning a lot easier. When the cheap Castleberry backup AI became available I installed one and had him install one. It didn't take much time before I realized that having a backup AI with a different source would prevent the type of LOC accidents I was always reading about. No matter how good you are at needle, ball and airspeed, it doesn't take the pressure off of an emergency situation like having a 2nd AI would. Ever since the cheap electronic AIs became available, I've decided in the interest of safety, including mine, I wouldn't teach instruments in actual conditions in any airplane without a backup AI. My first experience with glass was reading the G1000 manual and ferrying a New Acclaim half way across the country alone. That gave me plenty of time to push and twist all the buttons to see what was available. Loving button pushing with a purpose, I loved the trip, and learned the system. The value of glass over the basic panel became very evident in reduced time to scan all instruments. In spite of this, I kept my basic panel, except for installing the backup AI, for 22 years until the Symbol Generator box of my EFIS 40 broke. Honeywell wanted $18,000 to repair it. For 20 year all technology---no way. I found one to rent for about 4 months so I could fly to Oshkosh and have the time to read about all the new avionics that was available at the time. Yes, I read all the manuals, too. I decided after all the reading that I would go all in for an all glass panel. Since I told myself this would be the last major upgrade to the panel I would make, I decided to go all Garmin, not because I thought the G500 was better than the Aspen, but because I thought the interface would be easier--meaning everything would talk to each other without having to get multiple companies involved if there were problems. That proved to be a good decision. I have an Aera 796 on the yoke and 2 iPads, all for backup. For the most part I don't open the iPads much in flight; just too much information, but for those who don't have all the stuff I have it's a good way to go. I think I've pretty much seen it all and used most of the avionics and glass out there (except for the IFDs because none of my students have had one). The basic 6 pack with a backup AI would be the minimum equipment I would recommends for serious IFR flight. I find glass easy to use, and if you can afford it, you will quickly grow to love it. So there you have it. One person's transition from 6 pack to glass. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 1 hour ago, rpcc said: Glad you are here! Didn't mean to offend. Fly on. I left off the smiley. No offense taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Some additional summary... 1) a fair number of electrical engineers are trusting electronic displays and their back-ups at the same level as the old mechanical displays... no fear of red Xs... they have a proper plan B for that. 2) Updating a panel one piece at a time went out the window before my O was built... three or four devices are integrated together. They look like they could be upgraded or added as individuals, but something isn't right with that plan... 3) The old analog devices are good for IFR down to minimums. But you have to be extra confident and current and attentive and generally good with all that minimum detail. 4) Once you follow a needle on the panel and then realize that the needle isn't tuned properly, you turned right instead of left. You experience the aha moment that says that the old analog stuff isn't as good as the new digital stuff. Turning into mountains in IMC would make it worth it to have a digital update... 5) GPSi (i = plural) with graphical interfaces are a mid 90s phenomena. Pilots don't experience giving a 10 count to ATC or experience something called... a radio steer (?) (the term is so old I forgot what it is called) 6) There is nothing less comfortable than flying along following needles not knowing for sure if you are headed exactly towards the runway... or 180° In the opposite direction... 7) Distraction comes in many forms. Most forms of distraction you can hold off. Distractions get stronger in unusual conditions. One example... Really bumpy IMC with mechanical needles bouncing under their own mass. Another example... vacuum failure, flying the TC... 8) The most ridiculous back up Instrument is a bump sensitive needle in bumpy IMC. Have you ever tried to follow a TC in the bumps? 9) There are lots of improvements to nav equipment each year since Mr. Sperry invented instruments for keeping the clean side up. Not all of them have glass displays. 10) Glass displays have become the de facto displays of all the good nav equipment. 11) So What is the draw to glass panels? Simply, they are the mark of modern nav equipment.... 12) If you can picture flying down what appears to be an ILS, needles perfectly centered or close enough... and you are staring out to infinity seeing nothing but the inside of a cloud.... how much would you pay to be comforted by a graphical depiction of the runway coming into view on that same instrument.... enough to pay for an iPad? An approach rated GPS? A single Aspen? Or a fully integrated G500 with WAAS capable GPS, traffic displayed, and current weather including wind vectors, to stay out of icing and thunderstorms... 13) decisions like these are very personal. Your risk tolerance is not like any others. Your experience is not like any others. Your excess cash stores are not like any others... And fortunately, your risk tolerance and experience isn't the same as Peter's either! Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 3 hours ago, PTK said: I’m not buying it! Sorry! One is perfectly capable to do their own research and formulate their own opinion. You have seen this I’m sure. Look at the runway depiction on both. As an owner with first hand experience what’s your explanaton? What advice do you give? To try and reverse justify a purchase by sugarcoating it is one thing. But not stating the obvious can be considered misleading. Some may even call it doing a disservice. We need to try and suppress our biases and be honest. If I who doesn’t own either can look at this and shake my head you, an owner with your first hand experience, certainly should know. Hopefully Aspen is working on something... hopefully. And “that’s all I got to say about this!” I don’t think you will understand until someone flying a cub with no instruments starts telling you how worthless that shiny new ki300 is in your panel. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: A lot of pics of the pilot's primary (left) panels. I'm surprised that Jerry and Chris and Paul failed to rave about having a EDM right there in the middle of their scan!? Don’t have an EDM (a what?) & I don’t watch the engine Moriz gauges enroute often. (As long as the fuel flow is above 30 GPH it is running) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Jerry only has one combustion chamber. Kind of like a single piston engine in that respect... Surprising the engine can be so turbine smooth with only chamber... Do you get a turbine outlet temp with that? what temperature gets monitored to avoid a hot start? Is there a turbine equivalent of a CHT? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Paul look at Bob he'll be here 35 more years, it's those tired eyes of his needing the info in front. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted January 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Okay, let's assume that I'm willing to put the money into either an Aspen 2500 or the new Garmin 500 txi. Which one and why?Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6758N Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, NJMac said: Okay, let's assume that I'm willing to put the money into either an Aspen 2500 or the new Garmin 500 txi. Which one and why? Oh boy, time to get out the popcorn... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 17 minutes ago, NJMac said: Okay, let's assume that I'm willing to put the money into either an Aspen 2500 or the new Garmin 500 txi. Which one and why? Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Lets see some pictures of your plane and the panel you have now. How many hours do you have? What kind of flying do you do the most? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Danb said: Peter I miss your point it appears the runway appears properly on both units? Yes they both get the job done. These vids are very revealing of the processing horsepower of each. It's an apples to apples comparison of the runway markings.They illustrate the difference. Notice how jumpy and sluggish the Aspen depiction is compared to the 500. And that’s the original 500 before the major upgrade in 2016. I don’t dislike the Aspen I just think it’s old tech. Is this allowed to enter into the discussion or is it forbidden by the so called first handers? But there’s a bigger issue here and it’s disturbing. Seems to me if we are comparing and contrasting these things talking about everything about them such as costs, intergration, new tech vs older, etc. etc. etc. why is it that we can’t talk openly about pros and cons? Why do some on here consider it a bad thing and a big no no to discuss and express opinions if they are different than theirs? I thought we are adults with the confidence and maturity to be able to have a discussion. God forbid we express our observations and opinions! Not good. Very disappointing and disheartening. Edited January 19, 2018 by PTK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted January 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Lets see some pictures of your plane and the panel you have now. How many hours do you have? What kind of flying do you do the most? Panel still looks almost exactly like this. Was going to standardize the 8 pack on the left. But wondering if i might just bite the bullet hard once and be done with my upgrades. Low time pilot just flying for fun. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, PTK said: Yes they both get the job done. But notice how jumpy and sluggish the Aspen depiction is compared to the 500. And that’s the original 500 before the major upgrade in 2016. I don’t dislike the Aspen I just think it’s old tech. But there’s a bigger issue here. Seems to me if we are comparing and contrasting these things talking about everything about them such as costs, intergration, etc. etc. etc. why is it that we can’t talk openly about pros and cons? Why is it a bad thing and a big no no for some to discuss and express opinions if they are different than theirs? I thought we are adults with confidence and maturity to be able to have a discussion. God forbid we express our observations and opinions! You make an excuse for the Garmin because it is from 2012 but you condemn the Aspen and it is from the same time 2012 ? Both those videos are at least 5 years old. Do you know if either the Aspen or the Garmin look the same today? But more to the point, at that stage of the flight I am looking out the window and not at some video screen no matter who makes it. I don't notice the difference. Show me one post you made that was a positive comment about the Aspen? There is no "pros and cons" with you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 @NJMac looks like the shop is doing a great job getting rid of all the old wires and starting from scratch. I would take a strong look at @Browncbr1 new panel. I really like the results and the reasonable prices of the G5. Not to mention the future AP integration. If you buy the g500txi you cannot use the 7k Garmin AP instead you will spend 20k for the same added value with the upgraded model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 NJMac, wow! You have a lot of work to do......... and from a cost standpoint you are partially right. Putting to together and then taking it apart again will cost more. HOWEVER. There are other options. Garmin has the G5, many are putting one or two G5s in the panel and loving them. I don't know, I haven't seen them in a plane. There are more options coming, a lot of work is being done on avionics. If you can wait there will probably be several more choices and the price is bound to come down as the competition increases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 One other thing to keep in mind as you upgrade your panel. From my “research” the core market for txi panels will not be vintage Mooney aircraft. The reason the Garmin rep spends all of his time on another forum is that the install rate for high end avionics is extremely low on our planes. This becomes a problem when you have compatibility problems or you are patiently waiting for an STC to come about. No market means very little support. The TXI and gfc600 might not ever get authorization for c/d/e/f models. If I had a panel looking like yours I’d be buying two G5’s and be first in line for the new Garmin AP. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted January 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 One other thing to keep in mind as you upgrade your panel. From my “research” the core market for txi panels will not be vintage Mooney aircraft. The reason the Garmin rep spends all of his time on another forum is that the install rate for high end avionics is extremely low on our planes. This becomes a problem when you have compatibility problems or you are patiently waiting for an STC to come about. No market means very little support. The TXI and gfc600 might not ever get authorization for c/d/e/f models. If I had a panel looking like yours I’d be buying two G5’s and be first in line for the new Garmin AP. And frankly the costs on that isnt hateful at all. Maybe that is the easy way to tip toe into the poolSent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 You make an excuse for the Garmin because it is from 2012 but you condemn the Aspen and it is from the same time 2012 ? Both those videos are at least 5 years old. Do you know if either the Aspen or the Garmin look the same today? But more to the point, at that stage of the flight I am looking out the window and not at some video screen no matter who makes it. I don't notice the difference. Show me one post you made that was a positive comment about the Aspen? There is no "pros and cons" with you. Yeah, I don’t know about you, but I can hardly make out anything on these Aspens. Taxiing onto the runway at KGED. Sorry for the blurry picture, I took it with my 4 year old iPhone. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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