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What's the draw to the glass panels?


NJMac

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20 hours ago, David Herman said:

So I guess if you have a GPS, stormscope, or autopilot... or any sort of moving map / iPad ... you should remove them so you’re safer? 

Of course not!

There are some cockpit technologies that are great at increasing SA and reducing pilot workload. But in my mind the terms "increase SA" and "reduced pilot workload" don't apply to all. The things you mentioned are great at enhancing sa and workload reducers. A modern moving map GPS is a great at improving sa by displaying the complete navigation situation. A fuel computer is great at reducing pilot workload by presenting the fuel status and eliminating the need to do calculations. The two combined are great at presenting real time fuel and navigation information. A capable autopilot is above all the best at reducing workload and associated pilot fatigue.

However, an absolute value of the airspeed thrown in front of me is just not that important. It does nothing for sa or workload reduction. Our brain is analog. We see the world around us in infinitly continuous streams of shapes and colors. What is more important to me is my continuous connection to the airplane and recognizing exactly what it is doing. This is why I find an analog ASI to be much better.

And Chris, I'm very happy for you that "...the numbers have become a precise way of setting the airspeed..." To me it's just not that important...sorry buddy! 

Edited by PTK
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13 hours ago, Marauder said:

 


Wait until you have the mechanical ASI fail for real. I had one of the gizmos below on my pitot tube when I bought the plane. On one flight I started to see airspeed and just as I rotated, the airspeed went to zero. Found the flap wedge closed when I landed. Glad I had enough time with the plane and knew what power settings had me in the right airspeed range.

1e0e0049e08f24f5e1b783bb847cc3fd.jpg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

I knew a guy that speared a june bug with the pitot tube on approach and lost the asi.   Same deal, just flew in with usual attitude and power settings with no drama.  I'm still low enough time in the Mooney that I'm still learning how to land it, plus I suspect my asi is about 10kts optimistic, so if the asi went away I'd be very perturbed but would probably just wind up with a long landing.

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32 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I knew a guy that speared a june bug with the pitot tube on approach and lost the asi.   Same deal, just flew in with usual attitude and power settings with no drama.

I lost ASI just after TO two days ago, buzzed around for an hour without it (GPS works fine for boring holes in the local practice area) on approach it suddenly came back--perfect timing, it gets fussy in cold weather.

Shoot, all the Wright's had was an AOA:

5a5e47a0bf47e_WrightFlyerAOA.thumb.png.d75eacefea8beecb7fecc30b997c83b3.png

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On 1/14/2018 at 9:11 PM, NJMac said:

I've already convinced my wife that the next annual in about a year is going to be quite expensive. Definitely getting one of the new digital Auto Pilots. From what I'm told my new ifd440 will have the correct outputs to drive the autopilot. So if I don't need the glass panels, say for example an Aspen or two or three to feed the autopilot data, why would I put those in my panel as opposed to the steam gauges?

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

You raise a very good question. The answer is explore your goals and consider your options. You can replace your vacuum with AHRS without disturbing anything else. That's a worthwhile and true upgrade. And with the arrival of the G5, the KI300, the ESI500 and others we have more options today than even a very short time ago.  These options enable you to focus down on your AI and get AHRS without disturbing your scan or having to resort to Aspen which is archaic technology.  

Edited by PTK
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I knew a guy... actually it was me, who managed to take off with the pitot cover on. And I had just bought the Mooney, so this was my first flight in a Mooney in 24 years. No drama at all, I flew the pattern and landed, I suppose using visual and aural clues. (My check pilot was an old Navy carrier pilot so it sure didn't faze him.)  

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23 minutes ago, PTK said:

It is a worthwhile and true upgrade replacing vacuum with AHRS without disturbing anything else. And with the arrival of the G5, the KI300, the ESI500 and others we have more options today than even a very short time ago.  These options enable you focus down on your AI and get AHRS without disturbing your scan or having to resort to archaic Aspen technology.  

Yeah Peter that Aspen technology is as ancient as the G600 (technology basis for the G500). But in relative avionics terms both of these technologies are newbies when compared to your KI-256, introduced way back in the Carter Administration.

Aspen_LI.thumb.jpg.f0ac053f932f576a8fc14c194c58528a.jpgGarmin_LI.thumb.jpg.8290cf3f3ebdbc098de0c2ce371a43a8.jpg

Love the robustness of the stuff you have installed...

King.thumb.JPG.ab835e85fb4d02c490d46a083560bb7d.JPG

Peter -- I've met you in person. You're a nice guy. Not sure what happens to you when a keyboard is in front of you. There are a lot of people looking for information based on fact not fiction when it comes to making these financial decisions. If you were a G500 or Aspen owner, had issues, I think we would listen to you. 

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:17 PM, Marauder said:

 


Wait until you have the mechanical ASI fail for real. I had one of the gizmos below on my pitot tube when I bought the plane. On one flight I started to see airspeed and just as I rotated, the airspeed went to zero. Found the flap wedge closed when I landed. Glad I had enough time with the plane and knew what power settings had me in the right airspeed range.

1e0e0049e08f24f5e1b783bb847cc3fd.jpg

 

My E came with one of those flapping pitot covers, too.  Like yours, one day it stuck. I removed it for good. 

 

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Yeah Peter that Aspen technology is as ancient as the G600 (technology basis for the G500). But in relative avionics terms both of these technologies are newbies when compared to your KI-256, introduced way back in the Carter Administration.

Aspen_LI.thumb.jpg.f0ac053f932f576a8fc14c194c58528a.jpgGarmin_LI.thumb.jpg.8290cf3f3ebdbc098de0c2ce371a43a8.jpg

Love the robustness of the stuff you have installed...

King.thumb.JPG.ab835e85fb4d02c490d46a083560bb7d.JPG

Peter -- I've met you in person. You're a nice guy. Not sure what happens to you when a keyboard is in front of you. There are a lot of people looking for information based on fact not fiction when it comes to making these financial decisions. If you were a G500 or Aspen owner, had issues, I think we would listen to you. 

Chris take a chill pill and call me in the morning!

It is a fact that we have more options today than we did a very short time ago. It is a fact that replacing the ADI only and with an electronic AHRS is a huge upgrade and one that does not disturb your scan. It is a fact I did not jump on the rip everything out bandwagon precisely for the reasons I mentioned on this post and another earlier on this thread. It is a fact these are very valid reasons weather you want to hear it or not.

It is also a fact that I’m a nice guy!

It’s not necessary for someone to own a G500 or Aspen in order to know if it’s the right direction for them! I don’t own an AHRS ADI yet either.

Are opinions allowed Chris!?

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Certified GPS units are great. With one installed, why bother trying to navigate with an ipad??? I've never understood the thought process there . . . "Let's ignore the installed unit that has every airport location, runway length & elevation, nav aid, radio frequency, etc., in the country, and is hooked to the intercom as well as CDI with glideslope, and try to get around using this unapproved hardware" (because it's never been tested, the manufacturer being aware that it likely wouldn't pass) strapped to the yoke? No comprendo . . . I do admit that navigating with an ipad can be better than no GPS at all, just recognize that it's not nearly as accurate.

On 1/15/2018 at 8:22 PM, DXB said:

The altitude, heading, VSI tapes? - not so much.   I've tried covering my steam ASI and altimeter to ease the transition but do tend to freak out without them - the glass is just not as intuitive to read.  And I never look at the Aspen's counterparts for my conventional turn coordinator. 

I'm all about reading moving numbers being much more difficult than looking at the position of a needle. Its easy to tell with an analog Altimeter if I've drifted up or down 100 feet, not so easy with an altitude tape.

And let's not even mention setting airspeed accurately using the digital airspeed tape! YGBSM! This is someone grasping at straws to back-justify a purchase he wanted to make. We fly Mooneys, most of us have Vintage models with Vne = 200 mph. The only airspeed limits I've ever seen or heard of start at 200 knots = 230 mph. And I'd bet that all of us not flying turbo models in Bravo airspace set power for the most airspeed we can get. Or the most ground speed. 

Don't get me started on the magically-disappearing VSI, either. I really like to know if I'm drifting around at 40-50 fpm, rather than waiting for several minutes then discovering that my altitude is a couple of hundred feet off. If an instrument is important enough to display, then display the durn thing, don't hide it! And I'm very attached to my IVSI, and don't want to go backwards to "what was happening a few seconds ago" on that instrument, either. 

In my opinion, a certified panel-mounted GPS in a field of needles is the best set up. Add a tablet for approach plates if you want, it is sure easier to stay up to date. Navigate with a tablet? No thanks . . . . . .

For the anti-vacuum crowd, I'm keeping that for my Brittain autopilots anyway. Sure, something may come available to replace it at a reasonable price (approximately equal to an engine overhaul isn't reasonable, and the two new "inexpensive" units aren't approved for Mooneys yet) at some point, and I may do that when a Brittain unit succumbs.

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Certified GPS units are great. With one installed, why bother trying to navigate with an ipad??? I've never understood the thought process there . . . "Let's ignore the installed unit that has every airport location, runway length & elevation, nav aid, radio frequency, etc., in the country, and is hooked to the intercom as well as CDI with glideslope, and try to get around using this unapproved hardware" (because it's never been tested, the manufacturer being aware that it likely wouldn't pass) strapped to the yoke? No comprendo . . . I do admit that navigating with an ipad can be better than no GPS at all, just recognize that it's not nearly as accurate.

I'm gonna kick the hornet's nest and say I couldn't disagree more.  The ipad might be superfluous if one is lucky enough to have dual modern panel GPSs for extra screen real estate, or maybe a huge one like the GTN750, but that is hardly the most economical approach. 

A modern GPS like my GTN650 has a great diversity of valuable functions to offer, but in flight the default nav seems to be the preferred page to display when IFR, with the flight plan / procedure pages occupying most of the rest of its use.  The moving map thus doesn't get shown enough to provide continuous big picture situational awareness. This is just as well because that map can become cramped pretty easily.  And simultaneously trying to use the single GPS box for traffic, terrain awareness, datalink weather, and airport info in flight would be a huge distraction from its  essential IFR navigation function. The Ipad + Stratus (or similar) picks up these other functions beautifully, eliminating the cost of ads-b-in install in the panel, and Flightstream displays flight plan updates from the GTN automatically on the ipad.  The resulting situational awareness from using the ipad as an mfd is spectacular in comparison to the panel GPS alone.  For pure VFR missions, I'd actually prefer the ipad/stratus alone (with maybe a backup ipad tucked in the flight bag) over the panel GPS alone - the latter just isn't worth it in this context. The full vfr sectional as the moving map plus datalink info overlaid on the ipad provide more protection from blundering into an airspace, TFR, terrain, or adverse weather than the more cryptic panel GPS display.  

For me, the only debate as I get into IFR is whether to switch from Ipad to an Aera 660 or 796 +GDL 39 for these mfd functions and then use the ipad as strictly a preflight tool and efb.  I have an open mind here, but for now the Ipad remains my mfd.  A second panel mount unit may be the most robust and dependable solution, but as a value proposition, I don't see going that way. The ipad is doing a terrific job for cheap!

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3 hours ago, PTK said:

Chris take a chill pill and call me in the morning!

It is a fact that we have more options today than we did a very short time ago. It is a fact that replacing the ADI only and with an electronic AHRS is a huge upgrade and one that does not disturb your scan. It is a fact I did not jump on the rip everything out bandwagon precisely for the reasons I mentioned on this post and another earlier on this thread.  it’s not necessary for someone to own a G500 or Aspen in order to know if it’s the right direction for them! I don’t own an AHRS ADI yet either.

Are opinions allowed Chris!?

Opinions yes, but your one man crusade of slamming Aspen is getting old. You never owned one and everything you spew negative is based on secondhand information. This is a disservice to those people who are looking for an opinion based on firsthand experience. Here is mine:

JPI products (830 or 900) sent back for repair or firmware updates to FIX a problem: 3 times

Garmin GTN 650 taken back to the shop to FIX open squelch issues: 2 times

Garmin GNC 255B product taken back to FIX a problem: 0 times

JPI causing another open squelch issue not related to the actual GTN open squelch issue: 1 time

STEC 60-2 taken in to FIX a problem: 1 time

L-3 ESI-500 taken back to FIX an issue: 0 times

L-3 9000+ taken back to FIX an issue: 0 times

Electronics International RPM, MP & FP gauges sent back to FIX a problem: 0 times

Aspen PFD or MFD sent back to FIX a problem: 0 times

All of these electronic products can have new firmware installed to enhance or improve the product. I'm not counting those in unless they FIX a problem.

And as just as a point of reference, since 2012 I have spent more time with avionics shops than most people on this site. I research not only what is on the open web about these products but also speak at length with the avionics shop employees about issues they encounter with glass systems. 

Where I will agree with you is the presentation capabilities of these devices. I'm not some glass panel junkie who got my private and instrument on glass panels. I spent years flying steam as an instrument rated pilot. I was a late adopter of both the GPS and glass technologies. I was convinced that GPS was another fad like LORAN-C (anyone else own a LORAN-C unit?). I shared the opinion of many on this site that glass is overkill. Now that I have 6 direct years experience with these systems, I have learned these products add so much more to the experience of flying. Whether it is providing more information, safety, redundancy or enhancing the capabilities of what I already (GPSS for my STEC 60-2 autopilot for example) -- it's all good. 

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24 minutes ago, DXB said:

I'm gonna kick the hornet's nest and say I couldn't disagree more.  The ipad might be superfluous if one is lucky enough to have dual modern panel GPSs for extra screen real estate, or maybe a huge one like the GTN750, but that is hardly the most economical approach. 

A modern GPS like my GTN650 has a great diversity of valuable functions to offer, but in flight the default nav seems to be the preferred page to display when IFR, with the flight plan / procedure pages occupying most of the rest of its use.  The moving map thus doesn't get shown enough to provide continuous big picture situational awareness. This is just as well because that map can become cramped pretty easily.  And simultaneously trying to use the single GPS box for traffic, terrain awareness, datalink weather, and airport info in flight would be a huge distraction from its  essential IFR navigation function. The Ipad + Stratus (or similar) picks up these other functions beautifully, eliminating the cost of ads-b-in install in the panel, and Flightstream displays flight plan updates from the GTN automatically on the ipad.  The resulting situational awareness from using the ipad as an mfd is spectacular in comparison to the panel GPS alone.  For pure VFR missions, I'd actually prefer the ipad/stratus alone (with maybe a backup ipad tucked in the flight bag) over the panel GPS alone - the latter just isn't worth it in this context. The full vfr sectional as the moving map plus datalink info overlaid on the ipad provide more protection from blundering into an airspace, TFR, terrain, or adverse weather than the more cryptic panel GPS display.  

For me, the only debate as I get into IFR is whether to switch from Ipad to an Aera 660 or 796 +GDL 39 for these mfd functions and then use the ipad as strictly a preflight tool and efb.  I have an open mind here, but for now the Ipad remains my mfd.  A second panel mount unit may be the most robust and dependable solution, but as a value proposition, I don't see going that way. The ipad is doing a terrific job for cheap!

I feel naked without the iPad in the plane. Not sure why because I have enough stuff in the plane to show everything.

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9 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Glass is for wimps.

Real men fly open cockpit bi-planes with tailwheels and no instruments!

:ph34r:

Funny you mention that Gus. There is a gentleman at our airport who owns one of those new production wacos, It is equipped with a G500, Garmin GTN750 and 650, along with a EDM-930 and a RC allen electronic backup AI. It always made me laugh sitting in the cockpit of an open cockpit biplane and doing a software update...

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:21 PM, PTK said:

I think it’s a lot more than that. Here’s an example: if my pitot tube ices over how will my “steam” ASI behave. How will I know? It will predictably display a constant air speed unless I change altitude. This is very useful information because it’s based on a real physics model. Compare this to a red X on a pfd. There’s no useful information that a red X provides because it’s based on some software triggered response.

I should point out pitot icing will not predictably display constant airspeed.  It will ONLY do so if both the front aperture and the drain hole are iced over.  If either opening is only partially blocked, the results would be much less predictable and confusing.  You'd have an airspeed that looks right enough to make it difficult to identify the correct failure, but wrong enough to get you killed.

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13 minutes ago, N6758N said:

Funny you mention that Gus. There is a gentleman at our airport who owns one of those new production wacos, It is equipped with a G500, Garmin GTN750 and 650, along with a EDM-930 and a RC allen electronic backup AI. It always made me laugh sitting in the cockpit of an open cockpit biplane and doing a software update...

Probably spent so much on avionics, he couldn't afford a covered canopy. Should have gotten an ipad ;)

Seriously I'd never considered open cockpit IFR as a thing before, but sure enough it exists with the Wacos.  Can your fancy glass panel get fogged out?  I'll leave that category of flight to the real men for now :P

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Opinions yes, but your one man crusade of slamming Aspen is getting old. You never owned one and everything you spew negative is based on secondhand information. This is a disservice to those people who are looking for an opinion based on firsthand experience. Here is mine:

JPI products (830 or 900) sent back for repair or firmware updates to FIX a problem: 3 times

Garmin GTN 650 taken back to the shop to FIX open squelch issues: 2 times

Garmin GNC 255B product taken back to FIX a problem: 0 times

JPI causing another open squelch issue not related to the actual GTN open squelch issue: 1 time

STEC 60-2 taken in to FIX a problem: 1 time

L-3 ESI-500 taken back to FIX an issue: 0 times

L-3 9000+ taken back to FIX an issue: 0 times

Electronics International RPM, MP & FP gauges sent back to FIX a problem: 0 times

Aspen PFD or MFD sent back to FIX a problem: 0 times

All of these electronic products can have new firmware installed to enhance or improve the product. I'm not counting those in unless they FIX a problem.

And as just as a point of reference, since 2012 I have spent more time with avionics shops than most people on this site. I research not only what is on the open web about these products but also speak at length with the avionics shop employees about issues they encounter with glass systems. 

Where I will agree with you is the presentation capabilities of these devices. I'm not some glass panel junkie who got my private and instrument on glass panels. I spent years flying steam as an instrument rated pilot. I was a late adopter of both the GPS and glass technologies. I was convinced that GPS was another fad like LORAN-C (anyone else own a LORAN-C unit?). I shared the opinion of many on this site that glass is overkill. Now that I have 6 direct years experience with these systems, I have learned these products add so much more to the experience of flying. Whether it is providing more information, safety, redundancy or enhancing the capabilities of what I already (GPSS for my STEC 60-2 autopilot for example) -- it's all good. 

So opinions are allowed! That’s great, thank you Chris!

An observation and for clarification, I reject your notions about some crusade slamming your beloved Aspen and about not being able to have an opinion if you don't own one! That’s kind of ridiculous! Stating a fact i.e. it’s archaic, is not slamming. I have formulated my opinion before investing in it and decided it's not for me. And yes that’s through researching it and speaking with avionics shops. That’s plural... as in several. In your opinion that is second hand and because you may not agree with it you reject it. That’s certainly your prerogative. And yes, my KI256 is more archaic than your Aspen! You don’t see me getting bent out of shape do you?! This is a discussion.

I also reject your notion that the op was asking for opinions based on first hand knowledge. That’s not the case. This is a discussion.

It’s all good when we all can be adults and discuss!

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, PTK said:

Stating a fact i.e. it’s archaic, is not slamming. I have formulated my opinion before investing in it and decided it's not for me. And yes that’s through researching it and speaking with avionics shops. That’s plural... as in several. In your opinion that is second hand and because you may not agree with it you reject it. That’s certainly your prerogative. And yes, my KI256 is more archaic than your Aspen! 

I'll jump in :).

What makes you think the Aspen is Archaic Peter? It is only now coming up on its 10th birthday, it is an infant in the Aviation world! Sure it might not be as fast as the computers you have in your home or your iPhone, but its still almost cutting edge for something installed in an airplane. It has no moving parts, and is extremely reliable. In my experience as an avionics technician, working around these day after day, I only saw one Aspen with an issue, and it was the RSM on the tail, a simple replacement and calibration and the customer was on their way. The G500/600 although extremely reliable, averaged a few more repairs, although still very very low compared to anything legacy. Please enlighten us on how the Garmin G500/600 is any less "archaic" than an Aspen tube. 

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1 hour ago, N6758N said:

I'll jump in :).

What makes you think the Aspen is Archaic Peter? It is only now coming up on its 10th birthday, it is an infant in the Aviation world! Sure it might not be as fast as the computers you have in your home or your iPhone, but its still almost cutting edge for something installed in an airplane. It has no moving parts, and is extremely reliable. In my experience as an avionics technician, working around these day after day, I only saw one Aspen with an issue, and it was the RSM on the tail, a simple replacement and calibration and the customer was on their way. The G500/600 although extremely reliable, averaged a few more repairs, although still very very low compared to anything legacy. Please enlighten us on how the Garmin G500/600 is any less "archaic" than an Aspen tube. 

Well, as you know in the latter part of 2016 G released a major softwate update for the original G500 platform. Also they just released the brand new txi. 

Unless I missed it I haven’t seen any Aspen updates. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, PTK said:

Well, as you know in the latter part of 2016 G released a major softwate update for the original G500 platform. Also they just released the brand new txi. 

Unless I missed it I haven’t seen any Aspen updates. 

 

 

No, you definitely missed it. Aspen updates their software regularly as well, and there have been a few major ones along the way...just ask @Marauder;)

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17 minutes ago, N6758N said:

No, you definitely missed it. Aspen updates their software regularly as well, and there have been a few major ones along the way...just ask @Marauder;)

When was their last major software update and what new features have they added?

I like Chris and I don’t want to upset him. He doesn’t like it when someone has a different opinion than he does. I don’t want to rattle his cage too much and get him upset. :(

 

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