What's the draw to the glass panels?

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, N6758N said:

Garmin has announced/released the TXI series as an upgrade to replace the G500/600 series. It's designed to be installed with minimal modifications to aircraft already equipped with this existing system. 

I'm having a really really hard time believing that Aspen is not going to do something similar instead of fading away. These guys were the leader in retrofit glass for a long time, does anyone actually think they are going to go away without putting up a fight? A new Aspen with larger screens, better resolution, perhaps touch screen(s) would not be a huge feat for them. Just my $.02- but I'm inclined to think some others like @gsxrpilot and @Marauder would tend to agree...

Installs for the new 500 txi are in the $40k region with the gfc600 tacking on another 20k.  There will always be a market for the aspen for half the cost.  If they use the new FAA back door certification they could probably certify a new processor board and display in 1/10 the time Dynon will take to certify. 

The question is not if they will, the question is how aggressive the pricing and features will be. All the hardware is already being sold in the vfr unit for 4-5k so it would not be hard to provide upgrades or new units for a very competitive price.  The company might even team up with an AP company to provide simplified installation/reduced cost or provide the adsb in/out box for free to hold/gain market share. 

 

People go on and on about the graphics being obsolete. Please....  $500 worth of parts and you can play COD at 100 FPS on the same screen that is shooting an LPV to minimums. 

[mike_elliott]

6 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

People go on and on about the graphics being obsolete. Please

There is only one doing this.

[smccray]

9 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Installs for the new 500 txi are in the $40k region with the gfc600 tacking on another 20k.  There will always be a market for the aspen for half the cost.  If they use the new FAA back door certification they could probably certify a new processor board and display in 1/10 the time Dynon will take to certify. 

The question is not if they will, the question is how aggressive the pricing and features will be. All the hardware is already being sold in the vfr unit for 4-5k so it would not be hard to provide upgrades or new units for a very competitive price.  The company might even team up with an AP company to provide simplified installation/reduced cost or provide the adsb in/out box for free to hold/gain market share. 

If Aspen is competing with the G500TXI then I agree- there's a market.  I would offer that the competition is at the G600 level (larger aircraft) where Aspen does have an offering.  Garmin pricing does leave some room for competition at that level.  I suspect this is a pretty tough sell- the aircraft run $50-100K+ per year to operate plus the capital cost of the plane, so presumably the owners have the scratch to do what they want to do with the panel.

The G500 / Aspen others have to make investment decisions with Dynon breathing down their necks.  Dynon has been making promises on timing, but I wouldn't make any incremental investment in products without some certainty about the future market.  Certainly there will be some aircraft owners who will choose G500 with Garmin engine instrumentation, the certified GFC600 autopilot and other certified equipment.  There is zero doubt whether products from Garmin, JPI, Aspen, others are valuable; they are. 

Rather than evaluating the value proposition in the products themselves, the value proposition must be evaluated relative to other products.  A GFC500 TXI, Garmin engine instruments (or JPI), digital autopilot, stand alone transponder has a retail cost of ~$60K plus installation.  Is that setup worth 3x the cost of the offering from Dynon?  If Dynon offers that package for $16K for a single panel system, is an aspen worth $12K for only an EFIS?  I suspect there will be some people who will see the value proposition of the non-Dynon offering, but again that's not the right question.  The real question is what happens to sales volumes / profit margins at the competing companies, and can those companies survive.  It's kind of a vicious circle because if the stand alone company isn't viable long term, the value of the product today is even lower.

[KSMooniac]

I would love to see Avidyne and Aspen partner-up or officially merge. They have complementary products, but neither seems strong enough alone to get a full suite of products to market in a timely fashion. Avidyne's autopilot looked great coming out of the gate, but all development seems to have stopped. They could use a PFD product. Aspen could stand to update their product... I see a high potential synergy there...

Dynon very well might dump the apple cart over and create a big disruption in the market that will be most welcome. That alone could save many vintage airframes that have obsolete panels from the scrap heap. I hope they get to market soon.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Cruiser]

The future is going to be very interesting. The next big thing is going to impact installation. Wireless connecting is on its way. NO wires, everything is on a secure private network in the plane. A standard protocol for communication and everything can talk to everything else. Upgrades with be a breeze.

In order to keep up with technology there has to be a way to bring the unit price down. Certification costs, low volume etc hinder everyone from staying on top. There is no way this is going to happen.

The only way to keep up with technology is using uncertified portable devices with uncertified flight planning apps. Foreflight, FlyQ, WingX, Pilot etc. will be the latest and greatest displayed on a portable device (iPad). Avidyne has proven this witht he IFD100 iPad app. It is the same software used in the IFD540/440 on a huge screen. I was changing COM freq from the tablet on my last flight, before that I had the passenger in the rear seat doing the same from the Bluetooth keyboard.

All you will need is the basic certified hardware in the panel to be legal while actually using the apps, too bad they cannot be interfaced for control. 

[smccray]

Avidyne is private equity owned- deal was done before the G1000 was announced and Avidyne was the only game in town in Cirrus aircraft.  Investment timelines are such that I doubt that the current owner would have much interest in buying another company.

If instead we look at Avidyne as the seller and Aspen the buyer, the value of Avidyne is contingent on the timeline and the success of a retrofit glass product.  Avidyne charges big $ for its PFD extended warranties and repair business of that equipment.  It's my impression that the Entegra systems don't have a strong reputation for quality and longevity.  If Dynon (or Garmin) offers a quality retrofit product that would replace the Avidyne equipment, the long term viability of Avidyne's business in at risk and it will be difficult to pay a high enough multiple for Avidyne.

I believe things are lining up as Dynon as the budget player with Garmin at the high end.  Garmin has everything; Dynon does not have a GPS IFR navigator.  Dynon does all its demo panels and panel photos with Avidyne navigators even though the Dynon equipment is compatible with Garmin as well.  The rationale for Dynon's decision is obvious.  I believe it makes more sense for Dynon to do one of two things- and it's a fairly straight forward make or buy:

1. Buy Avidyne: use the navigator to create an integrated panel just like the forthcoming Garmin solution that integrates a branded navigator
2. Build an IFR Navigator: The WAAS antenna inside the Dynon HDX system is good enough to provide a position source for ADSB out.  It doesn't seem like a big stretch to me that Dynon could upgrade the software in the HDX system to add GPS approach capability and to get it certified.

If Dynon goes down path #2... assuming they get the system STC'd eventually... then Avidyne is toast altogether.  That's a big IF.

I don't have any knowledge of the development path at Dynon, nor do I have any inside information about any company mentioned above that affects my analysis.

[Steve W]

I think after we get reasonably priced autopilots the GPS navigator is definitely the big gap in the somewhat budget panel market. $10,000 new for either the Avidyne or the Garmin is a serious amount of cash. Sure, I'd love to upgrade to the new fancy GPS models. But already having a 530W and 430W means that the $20k+ to do that is not remotely a good use of funds.

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Steve W said:

I think after we get reasonably priced autopilots the GPS navigator is definitely the big gap in the somewhat budget panel market. $10,000 new for either the Avidyne or the Garmin is a serious amount of cash....

Back in the early 1980s King introduced the KX155.  “Everybody” said it was good but expensive.  With the KI 208 indicator but no glide slope it listed at $3400:  Flying Magazine Ad   That’s about $9300 adjusted into 2018 dollars. 

A GTN650 lists for just about the same today.  

An iPhone X is of similar technology complexity and is near $1,000 list price — and the production rate is said to be around 10,000,000 phones per month.

IPhone Production

 

[PTK]

On 1/25/2018 at 9:36 AM, MIm20c said:

Installs for the new 500 txi are in the $40k region with the gfc600 tacking on another 20k.  There will always be a market for the aspen for half the cost.  If they use the new FAA back door certification they could probably certify a new processor board and display in 1/10 the time Dynon will take to certify. 

The question is not if they will, the question is how aggressive the pricing and features will be. All the hardware is already being sold in the vfr unit for 4-5k so it would not be hard to provide upgrades or new units for a very competitive price.  The company might even team up with an AP company to provide simplified installation/reduced cost or provide the adsb in/out box for free to hold/gain market share. 

 

People go on and on about the graphics being obsolete. Please....  $500 worth of parts and you can play COD at 100 FPS on the same screen that is shooting an LPV to minimums. 

What are you comparing in your installed figures? Here's an apples to apples comparison from a very recent conversation I had with Sarasota Avionics sales: A single 7" 500txi with a GAD43e installed in my airplane compared with a single Aspen 1000 pro with an EA100 come in at a delta of ~3K. These are round number comparisons given to me when discussing options. It doesn't appear that Aspen is half the cost! Also comparing equipment costs, a single 7" AHRS 500txi is similar $ as the 1000pro! And that's because Aspen is running a special of 1k off. Box to box comparison on Sarasota website. 

In another conversation with the regional Aspen rep himself yesterday, as a matter of fact, they are not planning on any hardware upgrade or new releases. Just same old stale boxes.

So why would someone in their right mind doing a new install select Aspen?

Edited January 26, 2018 by PTK

[MIm20c]

32 minutes ago, PTK said:

What are you comparing in your installed figures? Here's an apples to apples comparison from a very recent conversation I had with Sarasota Avionics sales: A single 7" 500txi with a GAD43e installed in my airplane compared with a single Aspen 1000 pro with an EA100 come in at a delta of ~3K. These are round number comparisons given to me when discussing options. It doesn't appear that Aspen is half the cost! Also comparing equipment costs, a single 7" AHRS 500txi is similar $ as the 1000pro! And that's because Aspen is running a special of 1k off. Box to box comparison on Sarasota website. 

In another conversation with the regional Aspen rep himself yesterday, as a matter of fact, they are not planning on any hardware upgrade or new releases. Just same old stale boxes.

So why would someone in their right mind doing a new install select Aspen?

This is from memory. 

7 inch display w/SV unlock $16k 

43e w/ required unlock $5k

Aspen pro with SV unlock $9800-10800

EA100 $2700 no unlock required  

All of the above are retail prices.  Most dealers were providing a 10-13% discount off the above prices  

Every shop I called (10+ shops) had double the amount of hours to install the older G500 vs a single aspen display. The 7 inch unit will also need a new panel (2-3k?). It does not come with any type of battery backup. 

My guess is the above two systems will have a huge install cost delta between them. If I was going to spend the premium a 10 inch txi would be purchased. 

[N6758N]

5 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

My guess is the above two systems will have a huge install cost delta between them. If I was going to spend the premium a 10 inch txi would be purchased. 

You are correct. What Peter is not taking into account is labor. Having installed both of these systems personally in other aircraft, I can tell you the G500 system is significantly more complex to install than the Aspen. There are more boxes to be mounted, more wires to be ran, and a new panel to be cut. I would say your previous post stating its half the cost for the Aspen is pretty darn close. 

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, N6758N said:

You are correct. What Peter is not taking into account is labor. Having installed both of these systems personally in other aircraft, I can tell you the G500 system is significantly more complex to install than the Aspen. There are more boxes to be mounted, more wires to be ran, and a new panel to be cut. I would say your previous post stating its half the cost for the Aspen is pretty darn close. 

I wish you would stop quoting fact. You're making Peter look bad.

[N6758N]

I have been emailing the NE sales rep for Aspen about a system I am working on installing in my C. I asked him what Aspen's plans were given the new Garmin TXI stuff. He told me,

"We do have some cool changes coming later this year, you’ll be able to upgrade existing equipment in the field."

So @PTK, I guess we have conflicting info from Aspen, don't we? 

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, N6758N said:

I have been emailing the NE sales rep for Aspen about a system I am working on installing in my C. I asked him what Aspen's plans were given the new Garmin TXI stuff. He told me,

"We do have some cool changes coming later this year, you’ll be able to upgrade existing equipment in the field."

So @PTK, I guess we have conflicting info from Aspen, don't we? 

Fake news! (Been waiting to use that one for a while) 

[Browncbr1]

12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Fake news! (Been waiting to use that one for a while) 

it's not fake news.. its a deep corp misinformation coup  

[N6758N]

2 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

it's not fake news.. its a deep corp misinformation coup  

I believe the words you're looking for are Alternative Facts 

[Cruiser]

Wow! I just read the overview for the "new" Garmin txi .........

It sounds like they have finally caught up with the Aspen system 

1. They are claiming such revolutionary improvements like flexible display configuration - Aspen already has that

2. map underlying the HSI display - Aspen already has that

3. overlay of NEXRAD - Aspen already has that

4. overlay of airport diagrams - Aspen already has that

5. a new thing called reversion mode - Aspen already has that

6. backup GPS - Aspen already has that

7. removal of standby instruments - Aspen already has that

8. wireless transfer of flight plans (ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot only) - Aspen already has that but for more apps

9. Probably a some more I missed. - Aspen already has that

Of course Peter will say the Aspen is old and tired, sounds like that is because they already introduced all these things years ahead of Garmin.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, N6758N said:

I have been emailing the NE sales rep for Aspen about a system I am working on installing in my C. I asked him what Aspen's plans were given the new Garmin TXI stuff. He told me,

"We do have some cool changes coming later this year, you’ll be able to upgrade existing equipment in the field."

So @PTK, I guess we have conflicting info from Aspen, don't we? 

I’d love to see Aspen come out with a fresh box believe me! 

But according to the rep it’s not in the horizon. The info you’re referring to may be for software to “existing equipment.” He mentioned that to me also. That’s lipstick on a pig. 

I asked him specifically for anything new in hardware to compete with the Garmin txi. Unfortunately his answer was no.

Edited January 26, 2018 by PTK

[M016576]

You know what really bugs me... Garmin’s extra cost associated to wirelessly transfer flight plans... 

not only do you have to have buy a $800-$1500 flight stream, you also have to pay recurring flight book costs- whether that be the crappy Garmin EFB, or the slightly less crappy Foreflight. (I know, I know, some of you guys love paying 180 bucks a year for those two efb’s).

Avidyne does a solid with its IFD gps’s: the IFD100 app is free- so if you don’t have a subscription to an EFB (or a lifetime with FlyQ), you still get functionality out of your WiFi gateway.   Would be nice to have a free, pared down app out of Garmin- so you don’t have to buy the (way overpriced) gateway, and then buy an (overpriced) subscription to get any use out of it.

Edited January 26, 2018 by M016576

[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

I’d love to see Aspen come out with a fresh box believe me! 

But according to the rep it’s not in the horizon. The info you’re referring to may be for software to “existing equipment.” He mentioned that to me also. That’s lipstick on a pig. 

I asked him specifically for anything new in hardware to compete with the Garmin txi. Unfortunately his answer was no.

You talked to a sales rep, I talked to the person that designs/codes them in person. He told me all I needed to know.  

My uncle worked for GM as a Plant manger. He would find out about new cars 2 weeks after the rest of the world did. 

[PTK]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Back in the early days of this website, before he invested in his Garmin panel, Peter was every bit as much of a pro Aspen poster as he now is pro Garmin. One day he just totally reversed his position and he never looked back. The old Peter Aspen posts are still out there if you dig around for them. 

Relevance?

[Cruiser]

27 minutes ago, PTK said:

Relevance?

You have gone blind and can't pass your physical?  

[smccray]

At the risk of wading in...

Field upgradable enhancements aren’t the same thing as new hardware.  I bet you’re both right... enhancements to existing hardware... 

[KSMooniac]

Don't forget Garmin replaced processors in the GNS boxes for the WAAS upgrade...display went from 1 Hz to 5 Hz.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[PTK]

10 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Prior inconsistent statements are generally admissible to impeach the credibility of a witness, Counselor.

Jim

On the contrary Counselor. Their credibility is impeached when the witness is biased. For example their testimony is not trustworthy when it suffers from confirmation bias. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by PTK