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What's the draw to the glass panels?


NJMac

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So opinions are allowed! That’s great, thank you Chris!
An observation and for clarification, I reject your notions about some crusade slamming your beloved Aspen and about not being able to have an opinion if you don't own one! That’s kind of ridiculous! Stating a fact i.e. it’s archaic, is not slamming. I have formulated my opinion before investing in it and decided it's not for me. And yes that’s through researching it and speaking with avionics shops. That’s plural... as in several. In your opinion that is second hand and because you may not agree with it you reject it. That’s certainly your prerogative. And yes, my KI256 is more archaic than your Aspen! You don’t see me getting bent out of shape do you?! This is a discussion.
I also reject your notion that the op was asking for opinions based on first hand knowledge. That’s not the case. This is a discussion.
It’s all good when we all can be adults and discuss!
 
 
 
 
Yep. First hand. 2nd. 4th hand. Dont care. Just wondering why I would drop big money on glass when i kinda like my steam scan. My buddy is doing commercial training in a rental with an aspen. We both agreed we couldnt see the cost benefit working out for my plane. I was asking if i was missing anything.

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11 minutes ago, PTK said:

When was their last major software update and what new features have they added?

 

I couldn't tell you dates, I think they are on version 2.9...but they have added Synthetic vision, angle of attack, and others over the years. I'm not trying to knock down Garmin here Peter, I think the G500 is awesome and if I had the money I would have it installed, even over a 2 tube aspen system- but you can't crap all over Aspen without any data to back it up. 

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One generally doesn't miss something they never had, there's so many tools in our planes, comparing each generation of technology usually has great increases of information for us. In our old ADF days we could navigate better than pilotage, later the vors were great then Loran-C, but if never evolved to the next generation we never miss it.. I doubt I could go back and feel safe as I do now, I thought the one probe EGT CHT. was great but I need the engine analyzer, spoiled I guess. This doesn't mean those who never utilized the latest and greatest are wrong.

As far as the IPAD I'd also feel lost without two at my disposal even with two big screens on my G-1000. Who cares.Were all flying and enjoying maybe except for PV. 

Hes been hosed lately 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, N6758N said:

I couldn't tell you dates, I think they are on version 2.9...but they have added Synthetic vision, angle of attack, and others over the years. I'm not trying to knock down Garmin here Peter, I think the G500 is awesome and if I had the money I would have it installed, even over a 2 tube aspen system- but you can't crap all over Aspen without any data to back it up. 

I’m not a huge fan of the G500 or G for that matter. And I’m not crapping all over Aspen. Just stating the facts. It’s an archaic and tired platform. It desperately needs to be updated.

Edited by PTK
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5 minutes ago, N6758N said:

I couldn't tell you dates, I think they are on version 2.9...but they have added Synthetic vision, angle of attack, and others over the years. I'm not trying to knock down Garmin here Peter, I think the G500 is awesome and if I had the money I would have it installed, even over a 2 tube aspen system- but you can't crap all over Aspen without any data to back it up. 

The few times I see anything posted by Peter, it's if one of the others of you quote him. Otherwise, my forum feed only contains useful information with Peter and  a few others on the Ignore Users list.

BTW... I bought a used Aspen off of Barnstormers and love it. Also a two Aspen panel is actually more capable than a G500/600 in that it allows for the removal of all other instruments except for a stand by AI. The G500/600 installation still requires the other back up instruments such as ASI and Altimeter. When Brian Lloyd built his 231 for the flight around the world, weight and economy of panel space was important, cost was no object. He recognized that the Aspen panel allowed for more redundancy than the comparable Garmin panel and went Aspen. 

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3 hours ago, NJMac said:

Yep. First hand. 2nd. 4th hand. Dont care. Just wondering why I would drop big money on glass when i kinda like my steam scan. My buddy is doing commercial training in a rental with an aspen. We both agreed we couldnt see the cost benefit working out for my plane. I was asking if i was missing anything.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Did you learn anything for this discussion.?

Some people are satisfied with steam gauges, they work. Planes fly with them all the time. Kinda like trading in your ten year old car for a new one because it gets better gas mileage. :) 

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3 hours ago, PTK said:

I’m not a huge fan of the G500 or G for that matter. And I’m not crapping all over Aspen. Just stating the facts. It’s an archaic and tired platform. It desperately needs to be updated.

Rant on.....What facts? You never backup any incendiary statement with a source of data or a fact. Maybe you should look up archaic to know what it means before you use it in a sentence.

Here are the facts.

Since 2008 Aspen has made nineteen (19) software upgrades to the EFD1000/500 versions starting with 1.0 to currently 2.9. Some of the most recent are listed on their website if you care to actually look at the facts.

If you don't like Aspens, just say it. I don't really care if you like Garmin, 

I don't like that you try to justify your misinformed and/or uninformed comments from a position of knowledge that you don't have. 

Rant off...

 

Both Garmin and Aspen (among others) make great avionics. There are many features that distinctly set them apart and many features that they equally share. Your personal preference will help you decide which are better suited for your specific needs. 

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On 1/14/2018 at 9:11 PM, NJMac said:

I've already convinced my wife that the next annual in about a year is going to be quite expensive. Definitely getting one of the new digital Auto Pilots. From what I'm told my new ifd440 will have the correct outputs to drive the autopilot. So if I don't need the glass panels, say for example an Aspen or two or three to feed the autopilot data, why would I put those in my panel as opposed to the steam gauges?

The great thing about panel upgrades is you can do them at your own pace.  If you ask the wife for a digital AP this year you can wait a couple of years before going through that process again.  

I'm always starving for information. I need to know how everything works and formulate solutions to problems at work and normal day to day.  I treat flying the same way. I really enjoy the extra information provided by glass panels, engine monitors, traffic advisory units, low enroute charts, etc. I like having backups to compare the primary info and to continue if there is a malfunction. 

I find the glass panel provides additional valuable information, reduces my workload, reminds me of critical altitudes, and gives me a huge amount of situational awareness.  In my case it also allows my older AP to follow complex routes and approaches. 

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I’ve flown a couple different rental planes with the full G1000 set up, and quite a number of hours over the last 5 years in our C equipped with steam gauges, including a King slaved HSI driven by a Garmin 430W.  The glass is lovely and very useful.  But for me, the HSI is the most important instrument on the panel for IFR flying.   If you don’t already have one, it makes sense to go ahead and get that capability with glass.

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:17 PM, Marauder said:

 


Wait until you have the mechanical ASI fail for real. I had one of the gizmos below on my pitot tube when I bought the plane. On one flight I started to see airspeed and just as I rotated, the airspeed went to zero. Found the flap wedge closed when I landed. Glad I had enough time with the plane and knew what power settings had me in the right airspeed range.

1e0e0049e08f24f5e1b783bb847cc3fd.jpg




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I had the same experience at night in a rented 172 with two passengers I was taking to dinner out of Martin State. I could see the problem with a flashlight on climb out. I flew a pattern and landed. Same Gizmo as pictured in your post stuck in the down position.  I twisted the thing off the pitot tube and through it in the weeds. When I called the tower back ready for departure, the dbag  said that I should add “pitot cover removal”  to my pre-takeoff checklist. The girls were already a bit scared so I didn’t say what I wanted to say to him.

To this day I do not understand the mode of failure. Airspeed was alive at rotation and then gone at about 200agl.

Edited by Shadrach
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3 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

I’ve flown a couple different rental planes with the full G1000 set up, and quite a number of hours over the last 5 years in our C equipped with steam gauges, including a King slaved HSI driven by a Garmin 430W.  The glass is lovely and very useful.  But for me, the HSI is the most important instrument on the panel for IFR flying.   If you don’t already have one, it makes sense to go ahead and get that capability with glass.

I've never owned a plane that didn't have an HSI. And that was very intentional. Even my M20C came with an HSI coupled to a 530W. So I couldn't agree more. Nothing makes IFR flying easier than an HSI. 

Now with an Aspen in my 252 I can overlay two VOR (or other Nav) needles over the top of the HSI making it even more useful.

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19 hours ago, PTK said:

So opinions are allowed! That’s great, thank you Chris!

An observation and for clarification, I reject your notions about some crusade slamming your beloved Aspen and about not being able to have an opinion if you don't own one! That’s kind of ridiculous! Stating a fact i.e. it’s archaic, is not slamming. I have formulated my opinion before investing in it and decided it's not for me. And yes that’s through researching it and speaking with avionics shops. That’s plural... as in several. In your opinion that is second hand and because you may not agree with it you reject it. That’s certainly your prerogative. And yes, my KI256 is more archaic than your Aspen! You don’t see me getting bent out of shape do you?! This is a discussion.

I also reject your notion that the op was asking for opinions based on first hand knowledge. That’s not the case. This is a discussion.

It’s all good when we all can be adults and discuss!

 

 

 

 

So based on your comments, if someone who has never used your practice comes to me on this forum and says, "What do you think about using Peter's practice?" and I voice my opinion based on what I see on yelp for Philly -- that would be fine? My opinion about your practice would be based on someone else's opinion rather than on my personal experience. I personally don't think that is fair to you since I don't have firsthand knowledge of your practice. Ain't right...

Opinions can be very damaging if the context is not provided. Your "archaic" comment makes it sound like the Aspens were built in the stone ages of avionics. They were not, nor were the other avionics designed and built in the post 2000 era. The majority of our computers today were built on technologies originally designed and improved since the early 1980s. 

I think most of us who spend significant money on avionics want opinions based on real knowledge & experience with these products. If they want opinions from tire kickers, let them live the P.T. Barnum quote. 

Using a slightly modified quote from another great figure in America, "that's all I got to say about this".

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18 hours ago, NJMac said:

Yep. First hand. 2nd. 4th hand. Dont care. Just wondering why I would drop big money on glass when i kinda like my steam scan. My buddy is doing commercial training in a rental with an aspen. We both agreed we couldnt see the cost benefit working out for my plane. I was asking if i was missing anything.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Just make sure you don't make that decision on the wrong information. 

BTW - I have never advocated that people should dump their steam for glass. There are a ton of good reasons to stay with a steam gauge plane ranging from type of flying you are doing, expected length of ownership and the cost. Some of us are in for the long haul with our planes. For us, the movement to glass fits. Good luck.

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10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've never owned a plane that didn't have an HSI. And that was very intentional. Even my M20C came with an HSI coupled to a 530W. So I couldn't agree more. Nothing makes IFR flying easier than an HSI. 

Now with an Aspen in my 252 I can overlay two VOR (or other Nav) needles over the top of the HSI making it even more useful.

And don't forget about the autoslewing capability. That is worth it by itself.

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HSI?  I do not often include the HSI needles in my scan while enroute.  

My scan is mostly horizontal on the G500:  Attitude then right to altitude cursor then further right on MFD to compare actual track (dotted line arrow) with desired track (magenta). Then back leftwards.  

E8701DE3-DEE5-44C0-B197-DADB7887DC80.thumb.jpeg.303488fa19e3d6affcdb959a0608f8c3.jpeg

In this image everything is so well centered that George must have the controls...

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HSI?  I do not often include the HSI needles in my scan while enroute.  
My scan is mostly horizontal on the G500:  Attitude then right to altitude cursor then further right on MFD to compare actual track (dotted line arrow) with desired track (magenta). Then back leftwards.  
E8701DE3-DEE5-44C0-B197-DADB7887DC80.thumb.jpeg.303488fa19e3d6affcdb959a0608f8c3.jpeg
In this image everything is so well centered that George must have the controls...


I’ve flown with you, I know better...


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17 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

A lot of pics of the pilot's primary (left) panels. I'm surprised that Jerry and Chris and Paul failed to rave about having a EDM right there in the middle of their scan!?

I thought I had raved about it ;)  Well here goes...

I know that engine instruments are not included in the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate trinity. But those three really only come into play in the airport/runway environment or on an approach/hold/etc. The vast majority of the hours I spend in the left seat of my Mooney, "George" is doing the flying. And so with the track, heading, altitude, navigation, all handled... what I'm left to to is manage the power. So I find myself spending the vast majority of my time watching the EDM-900. I'm checking temps, fuel flow, fuel quantity, oil pressure/temp, % power, etc. So having the EDM-900 engine monitor in my direct field of view is exactly the best place for it. And the few other pilots who have flown my 252 have all commented that they think my EDM-900 placement is the best they've ever seen.

Now this is only possible because of the Aspen. One of the benefits of glass is the consolidation of the full 6 pack into effectively two instruments. The AI/ASI/VSI/Alt/TC on the top and the DG/CDI/HSI/Nav on the bottom. With all of those instruments shrunk down into a single Aspen panel, there is room for a proper graphical engine monitor within the pilots primary scan. 

I'd never flown glass prior to rolling my 252 out of the avionics shop with it's new panel. It took me all of one flight to realize this is a game changer and wonder about the 500 Mooney hours with the old steam gauges and what took me so long to get it done right.

I'll throw an invitation out to anyone on this forum to come ride left seat in my 252 and see if you don't agree.

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40 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

A lot of pics of the pilot's primary (left) panels. I'm surprised that Jerry and Chris and Paul failed to rave about having a EDM right there in the middle of their scan!?

For me Bob, it was a matter of panel efficiency. Once I installed my HSI, I had a blank spot in my '8 pack' where my #1 Nav CDI formerly was, the HSI allowed me to remove that CDI. Next I wanted a 'panel' mounted iPad, but where to put it? I moved my EDM-900 to the spot where the old CDI used to reside. Now I had a nice place right in the middle of the R/H side panel for an ipad mount. I still have my primary 6 pack and instrument scan, for now at least, and I lost nothing by moving the engine monitor closer to my field of view. 

 

panel 2.jpg

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A lot of pics of the pilot's primary (left) panels. I'm surprised that Jerry and Chris and Paul failed to rave about having a EDM right there in the middle of their scan!?


Have I mentioned how great it is to have the JPI in the middle of my scan?


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51 minutes ago, N6758N said:

For me Bob, it was a matter of panel efficiency. Once I installed my HSI, I had a blank spot in my '8 pack' where my #1 Nav CDI formerly was, the HSI allowed me to remove that CDI. Next I wanted a 'panel' mounted iPad, but where to put it? I moved my EDM-900 to the spot where the old CDI used to reside. Now I had a nice place right in the middle of the R/H side panel for an ipad mount. I still have my primary 6 pack and instrument scan, for now at least, and I lost nothing by moving the engine monitor closer to my field of view. 

 

panel 2.jpg

What a great spot that would have been for a Stormscope! :rolleyes:

IMG_20171029_131906835_HDR.jpg

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1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I thought I had raved about it ;)  Well here goes...

I know that engine instruments are not included in the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate trinity. But those three really only come into play in the airport/runway environment or on an approach/hold/etc. The vast majority of the hours I spend in the left seat of my Mooney, "George" is doing the flying. And so with the track, heading, altitude, navigation, all handled... what I'm left to to is manage the power. So I find myself spending the vast majority of my time watching the EDM-900. I'm checking temps, fuel flow, fuel quantity, oil pressure/temp, % power, etc. So having the EDM-900 engine monitor in my direct field of view is exactly the best place for it. And the few other pilots who have flown my 252 have all commented that they think my EDM-900 placement is the best they've ever seen.

.

Ain't buying it. By your logic (I only aviate in the airport environment) you could put the HSI, ASI, Alt, all on the right side since George is taking care of aviating and navigating. 

Next time you're getting bounced around in moderate and the AP says "your airplane" please take note of how important you find it to keep OAT in your primary scan. When ATC let me fly right through a building, imbedded cell at night over the KY mountains I had an alligator by the tail keep the wings within 45 deg of level and the AS somewhere between stall and red line. When ATC helpfully advised that I was 3000' high of assign altitude I did 3 seconds of COMMUNICATE to tell him to go away. I'm sure I was polite. It has been many years but I'm positive I did not look at the tach, MP,  etc. Ol' George was taking a break. 

All in fun good buddy. It isn't what you spend most of your time doing, it's what you need when the chips are down. 

 

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Jerry my scanning in the G-1000 is similar to yours except I have a small map from the right panel inset on the left under the airspeed tape and the engine instruments on the left of the mfd, every minute or so I engage the full engine scan and include it in my scan then back to the attitude to start over. About every 3-5 minutes I check my pulse meter and check the 02 connections I hang on the yoke over the iPad.

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22 hours ago, Marauder said:

So based on your comments, if someone who has never used your practice comes to me on this forum and says, "What do you think about using Peter's practice?" and I voice my opinion based on what I see on yelp for Philly -- that would be fine? My opinion about your practice would be based on someone else's opinion rather than on my personal experience. I personally don't think that is fair to you since I don't have firsthand knowledge of your practice. Ain't right...

Opinions can be very damaging if the context is not provided. Your "archaic" comment makes it sound like the Aspens were built in the stone ages of avionics. They were not, nor were the other avionics designed and built in the post 2000 era. The majority of our computers today were built on technologies originally designed and improved since the early 1980s. 

I think most of us who spend significant money on avionics want opinions based on real knowledge & experience with these products. If they want opinions from tire kickers, let them live the P.T. Barnum quote. 

Using a slightly modified quote from another great figure in America, "that's all I got to say about this".

I’m not buying it!  Sorry! One is perfectly capable to do their own research and formulate their own opinion. 

You have seen this I’m sure. Look at the runway depiction on both. One is not better than the other. They both get the job done. But there are significant differences. Why is that so bad to discuss?

 

As an owner with first hand experience what’s your explanaton?  What advice do you give? To try and reverse justify a purchase by sugarcoating it is one thing. But not stating the obvious can be considered misleading. Some may even call it doing a disservice. We need to try and suppress our biases and be honest. If I who doesn’t own either can look at this and shake my head you, an owner with your first hand experience, certainly should know. Hopefully Aspen is working on something... hopefully.

And “that’s all I got to say about this!”

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