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What's the draw to the glass panels?


NJMac

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I've already convinced my wife that the next annual in about a year is going to be quite expensive. Definitely getting one of the new digital Auto Pilots. From what I'm told my new ifd440 will have the correct outputs to drive the autopilot. So if I don't need the glass panels, say for example an Aspen or two or three to feed the autopilot data, why would I put those in my panel as opposed to the steam gauges?

 

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About three times the data feed in a compact area...

Great detail for IFR traveling.  1/3 as useful if only Flying short VFR flights...

If you like, you can calculate all the detail with an abacus...

You decide.

it isn't the same data in a different format.

ya know?

Keep in mind, the new digital APs are going to need a source of data, that probably isn't supplied by 50year old instruments.

you sure you want to tell your spouse all this a year in advance?  :)

Might be a better plan to think through a whole upgrade plan before launching that conversation...

-a-

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I've already convinced my wife that the next annual in about a year is going to be quite expensive. Definitely getting one of the new digital Auto Pilots. From what I'm told my new ifd440 will have the correct outputs to drive the autopilot. So if I don't need the glass panels, say for example an Aspen or two or three to feed the autopilot data, why would I put those in my panel as opposed to the steam gauges? 

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It comes down to personal preference. For me, I started out as a steam guy. Heck, didn’t have a GPS either. When I made the decision to install the GPS, I could have easily stopped there. What triggered the first foray into the glass started as a question where to display the GPS output. My steam CDIs wouldn’t work so I began looking at the Garmin GI-106. For the cost, it was just a glorified CDI. The shop I was working with convinced me to look into an Aspen.

 

As the Aspen PFD was being installed I started to research the MFD. I already was starting to use an iPad but the big difference was the lack of integration. Make a change on the GPS and it shows up on the Aspens.

 

That has changed now with both the Avidyne and Garmin products capable of updating the iPad apps with a few button strokes.

 

For me personally, I just like having ALL the information I need in front of me on certified boxes. I have had my iPad shut down unexpectedly and it certainly can’t drive a certified Nav signal with glideslope.

 

My suggestion is find someone who has a glass panel system and spend some time flying with them. It may not be for you.

 

 

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For me, glass makes IFR flying easier. All the data is in one area reducing the scan. There's also a lot less turning of knobs while shooting an approach in IMC.

It might sound silly, but I really like the additional data that the Aspen provides such as Wind direction, velocity, and TAS.

There's no question an HSI makes IFR flying easier. And it's even better when the desired GPS track including holds, waypoints, etc are overlayed on the HSI. I can also display multiple nav sources such as two different VOR needles on the same HSI.

Then there is the reliability with the ability to remove the vacuum system to say nothing of reducing things spinning on very delicate bearings.

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NJM,

What kind of Flying are you doing?

It doesn't matter much what Mooney you are flying.  Everything from A to U can be aided with these devices.

Consider Adding An AOAi For Improved airspeed calculations in the landing phase... Analog or Aspen... both are good.

If you are IR'd all the nav attributes gain value.  Weather and traffic, continuously displayed on your IFR chart and IFR procedures (IFR charts for the landing environment)...

 full compliment of glass panels can cost as much as your plane.  So not everyone is ready for pretty colors without gaining a lifetime of value...

Best regards,

-a-

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On the non-operational side, I'm picking on the G5 and my current King gear here: glass also often has advantages on weight(I just found out that my HSI has a 4lb remote Gyro, the in-panel unit is another 4lbs, the G5 is under 1lb), overhaul times(virtually unlimited on glass, we'll see...), overhaul cost(guess we don't yet know, but a new G5 is $2150 so hopefully repair is less than that, and overhauling my old attitude indicator is between $1000 and $2000). In addition if I move to all-electric I can lose the weight and maintenance of a vacuum pump, hoses, and standby vacuum pump, but will need to make sure all the new glass has appropriate battery backups.

 

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I think it's different things for different people that are important. Short list

  • More information right in front of you.
  • Reliability of AHRS over vacuum, combined with  "partial panel" backup including an attitude inducator, 
  • Typically larger attitude information, easier to read once you get used to it.
  • We like new stuff.

 

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9 hours ago, NJMac said:

 

I've already convinced my wife that the next annual in about a year is going to be quite expensive. Definitely getting one of the new digital Auto Pilots. From what I'm told my new ifd440 will have the correct outputs to drive the autopilot. So if I don't need the glass panels, say for example an Aspen or two or three to feed the autopilot data, why would I put those in my panel as opposed to the steam gauges?

 

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Why do you need a new digital autopilot?  there is a accutrak on here for sale with the valve that I would jump on.  That's what I installed and I couldn't be happier.  Tracks the magenta line like a champ.  

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NJM,
What kind of Flying are you doing?
It doesn't matter much what Mooney you are flying.  Everything from A to U can be aided with these devices.
Consider Adding An AOAi For Improved airspeed calculations in the landing phase... Analog or Aspen... both are good.
If you are IR'd all the nav attributes gain value.  Weather and traffic, continuously displayed on your IFR chart and IFR procedures (IFR charts for the landing environment)...
 full compliment of glass panels can cost as much as your plane.  So not everyone is ready for pretty colors without gaining a lifetime of value...
Best regards,
-a-
I fly to escape reality, just for fun and to clear my head. Working on my instrument ticket, have close or just over 10 hrs actual / simulated time.

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The airlines bought glass because glass was cheaper to maintain.  Until it retired NWA's old DC-9's a couple of years ago, Delta was flying them with steam gauges /A in the same skies as all the gee-whiz airplanes.

I'm not convinced that those economies have been reached in the little airplane world.

Marauder's panel is a thing of beauty and the gee-whiz effect is stunning, but my very basic steam gauge C with a G430W has exactly the same minimums.  It's  not until you get into the world of HUDs, Cat II/III, RNP that capability is expanded.

I'll  keep my old panel until stuff starts failing and take a look at cost/benefit at that time.  A mechanical gyro overhaul is probably still a lot cheaper that a "flat rate repair" on glass.

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This IFR Pilot’s Progression to Glass:

I get a tablet & subscription. Instantly realize that’s way better than lugging around charts and plates.  And they update themselves!  Gleefully throw away the Jepp binders.

Also get a portable GPS with an XM antenna.  Carefully mount it on yoke.  Wow!  Graphic view of surroundings.  Weather, winds aloft, lightning. Ground track, distances, ground speed, and I can “see” what’s ahead even in IMC.  That’s transformational.  

Then I add a portable ADS-B with AHRS.  Soon realize the tablet is now prime reference for weather, traffic, navigation.  And I tend to use the attitude reference on tablet.  Occasionally I sneak a peek at the old vacuum AI to confirm.  

I tell folks I still have steam gauges but I’m mostly using my glass— because the amount of information and the clarity of presentation they give are far superior.  

Next in disgust over intermittent audio in my C model one day I start ripping out stuff.  I’m an EE, I can fix this.... All the avionics and all wiring go out. A used 530W snared from eBay goes in.  

Now I can fly RNAV LPV into my home ‘drome instead of the usually worthless VOR approach.  The precision is astonishing—if I never see the runway at least the debris field will be down the centerline.

Up to this point it’s been fairly inexpensive.

Then I buy a plane that’s glass from left to right.  

As the motorcycle guys say, never look back.  

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, NJMac said:

I've already convinced my wife that the next annual in about a year is going to be quite expensive. Definitely getting one of the new digital Auto Pilots. From what I'm told my new ifd440 will have the correct outputs to drive the autopilot. So if I don't need the glass panels, say for example an Aspen or two or three to feed the autopilot data, why would I put those in my panel as opposed to the steam gauges?

With a digital A/P, IFD440 and a three panel Aspen you can ditch the vacuum system, have greater reliability and greater useful load.

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Situational awareness.  HSI + synthetic vision all in one place. No need to look anywhere else. 

Redundancy.   3 certified AI's in the panel, none rely on vacuum system. I certainly would not want to rely on a single vacuum AI like the old days.

Reliability. In theory, it should be much better. Time will tell. So far, so good.

It is true that this fancy panel cannot fly any approach a basic 430W cannot. But I need all the help I can get.

Larry

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RESALE VALUE

In not too many years planes with the old steam gauge panels will not be sellable

We already see that with GPSs. If a plane doesn't have one it will be bypassed almost 100% of the time now.

So, pay me now and get some personal use from it or pay me later to just get a buyer to look at your plane.

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On 1/15/2018 at 8:27 PM, David Herman said:

Your situational awareness is increased, pilot workload is decreased, instrument scan in IFR is less demanding ... 

...and, according to the NTSB,  pilots in so equipped aircraft kill themselves at almost twice the rate than those with “steam”’ gauges. And the irony of it is that more often than not these pilots are more experienced and have higher ratings!

Why? 

I’m all for increased sa and decreased pilot workload but something is drastically wrong. We are headed in the wrong direction.

Edited by PTK
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...and, according to the NTSB,  pilots in so equipped aircraft kill themselves at twice the rate than those with “steam”’ gauges.
Why? 
(I’m all for increased sa and decreased pilot workload but something is drastically wrong.)

Maybe they fly more difficult conditions? I don’t see too many 152s, 172s, cubs, etc flying IFR or even long cross country trips.
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31 minutes ago, teejayevans said:


Maybe they fly more difficult conditions? I don’t see too many 152s, 172s, cubs, etc flying IFR or even long cross country trips.

I think it’s a lot more than that. Here’s an example: if my pitot tube ices over how will my “steam” ASI behave. How will I know? It will predictably display a constant air speed unless I change altitude. This is very useful information because it’s based on a real physics model. Compare this to a red X on a pfd. There’s no useful information that a red X provides because it’s based on some software triggered response.

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Mixed bag.

My Aspen PFD's HSI and AI are absolute gems of clarity and readability compared to their steam counterparts and required zero transition effort from steam.

The altitude, heading, VSI tapes? - not so much.   I've tried covering my steam ASI and altimeter to ease the transition but do tend to freak out without them - the glass is just not as intuitive to read.  And I never look at the Aspen's counterparts for my conventional turn coordinator. 

I bet the Aspen could provide for a much tighter and more efficient scan if I were really ready to let the old stuff go and use all the glass components.  It's just a matter of (awkward) practice.

Do I need a glass MFD to supplement my Aspen pfd and GTN650?  I am not convinced.  The stratus+ipad mini on the yoke are just so good at picking up the slack left by those two panel units, particularly after supplementing with a FS210 to make the ipad talk to the panel.

God help me if I break or lose my ipad mini on a trip.

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Mixed bag.
My Aspen PFD's HSI and AI are absolute gems of clarity and readability compared to their steam counterparts and required zero transition effort from steam.
The altitude, heading, VSI tapes? - not so much.   I've tried covering my steam ASI and altimeter to ease the transition but do tend to freak out without them - the glass is just not as intuitive to read.  And I never look at the Aspen's counterparts for my conventional turn coordinator. 
I bet the Aspen could provide for a much tighter and more efficient scan if I were really ready to let the old stuff go and use all the glass components.  It's just a matter of (awkward) practice.
Do I need a glass MFD to supplement my Aspen pfd and GTN650?  I am not convinced.  The stratus+ipad mini on the yoke are just so good at picking up the slack left by those two panel units, particularly after supplementing with a FS210 to make the ipad talk to the panel.
God help me if I break or lose my ipad mini on a trip.


Dev - as someone who has been flying steam since the 80s, it took me a while to make the transition to the glass equivalents. It was harder for me to make the ASI jump than the altimeter. Probably because the mechanical ASI was a “positional” indicator and I had just become adjusted to reading a position rather than a number.

I had the ASI and altimeter removed this past Spring so there was no going back. I’m happy to report that I’m fully transitioned. I find it really easy now to interpret the tapes and the numbers have become a precise way of setting the airspeed. Not much different than using your JPI for MP and RPM. As for PG’s red X paranoia, if you have a plugged pitot tube, the mechanical ASI is unusable. The issue with our planes isn’t the plugged pitot system, it is the fact we have a single point of failure — i.e. a single pitot system.

As for the MFD, with the integration of the iPad to the navigator, it has less significance than it did a few years ago as navigation aid. That said, at least for the for the Aspen system, it provides the redundancy that the iPad can’t do.


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16 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I had the ASI and altimeter removed this past Spring so there was no going back. I’m happy to report that I’m fully transitioned. I find it really easy now to interpret the tapes and the numbers have become a precise way of setting the airspeed. 

 

Yeah my analog altimeter must ultimately concede its hallowed position in the panel to a backup AI/pfd like the Sandia or your L3 when I dump the vac - hopefully soon . But I suspect I'll say something related to "prying from my cold dead hands" when Ben Travis asks about removing my original ASI :lol:.  I swear I try to look at the flipping numbers on that airspeed tape,  but it just skeeves me out on short final every time, and I tear my post-it off the steam gauge to stop hyperventilating.  Old habits die hard.

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Yeah my analog altimeter must ultimately concede its hallowed position in the panel to a backup AI/pfd like the Sandia or your L3 when I dump the vac - hopefully soon . But I suspect I'll say something related to "prying from my cold dead hands" when Ben Travis asks about removing my original ASI :lol:.  I swear I try to look at the flipping numbers on that airspeed tape,  but it just skeeves me out on short final every time, and I tear my post-it off the steam gauge to stop hyperventilating.  Old habits die hard.


Wait until you have the mechanical ASI fail for real. I had one of the gizmos below on my pitot tube when I bought the plane. On one flight I started to see airspeed and just as I rotated, the airspeed went to zero. Found the flap wedge closed when I landed. Glad I had enough time with the plane and knew what power settings had me in the right airspeed range.

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