PlaneDrvr99

Electronic Ignition

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Yes, somebody posted their experience in a thread a while ago.

I don't recal the details. I'm looking for somebody to do the same for the IO550...

Search is your friend...

Best regards,

-a-

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Are you a MAPA member? There is a current thread on the MAPA (members only) listserve. Don Maxwell, Lee Fox and others commented on the pros and cons. Lee is on MS but not faithful. @mccdeucehad EI on his J model...

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Thank you everyone for your help and input. After a little research and some refining of my search skills, I did come up with some info on Emag and ElectroAire.  Unfortunately, I have the IO-360-A3B6D with the dual Bendix Mag. From what I can tell, Due to having the dual Bendix Mag disqualifies me from going to Electronic ignition. I'm scheduled to go to Don Maxwell's on the 22nd for a tank seal so I will inquire with him on the matter to see if I have any options. 

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1 hour ago, PlaneDrvr99 said:

Thank you everyone for your help and input. After a little research and some refining of my search skills, I did come up with some info on Emag and ElectroAire.  Unfortunately, I have the IO-360-A3B6D with the dual Bendix Mag. From what I can tell, Due to having the dual Bendix Mag disqualifies me from going to Electronic ignition. I'm scheduled to go to Don Maxwell's on the 22nd for a tank seal so I will inquire with him on the matter to see if I have any options. 

As long as you maintain your D3000 magneto and have it installed correctly you should have no issues with it.

Clarence

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I have an electroair on my J.  Previous owner had the engine reman from Lycoming and therefore had the magnetos split.  

You cannot legally do a Dual Mag electronic ignition on a certified aircraft right now. Pretty much you don't have options unless you are willing to redo he case and split your mag. 

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7 hours ago, mccdeuce said:

I have an electroair on my J.  Previous owner had the engine reman from Lycoming and therefore had the magnetos split.  

You cannot legally do a Dual Mag electronic ignition on a certified aircraft right now. Pretty much you don't have options unless you are willing to redo he case and split your mag. 

Do you know why that is? I have dual EI on my RV-9 that I'm going to sell shortly to fund a 4-seater, and a -J is on my list, with EI being one of the early planned upgrades. The Electroair AML lists the M20-M20J's as being approved. I note Electroair do say they don't have a solution to completely replace the D2000/D3000 magneto system though.

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5 minutes ago, KRviator said:

Do you know why that is? I have dual EI on my RV-9 that I'm going to sell shortly to fund a 4-seater, and a -J is on my list, with EI being one of the early planned upgrades. The Electroair AML lists the M20-M20J's as being approved. I note Electroair do say they don't have a solution to completely replace the D2000/D3000 magneto system though.

The FAA is under the impression that every ignition system developed since the magneto is less reliable.

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On 1/12/2018 at 11:11 PM, KRviator said:

Do you know why that is? I have dual EI on my RV-9 that I'm going to sell shortly to fund a 4-seater, and a -J is on my list, with EI being one of the early planned upgrades. The Electroair AML lists the M20-M20J's as being approved. I note Electroair do say they don't have a solution to completely replace the D2000/D3000 magneto system though.

The FAA first and foremost says there has to be a magneto for certified setups.  So there is not currently a setup to build a half mag half electronic ignition. 

I personally think the electronic ignition is far superior to a magneto and the mentality of "magnetos are reliable because they don't require electricity" has kept aviation engine configuration stalled. But not everyone agrees.  

And that to me is why we have experimental aircraft and certified aircraft.  I just wish there was a way to take a certified airframe and put experimental engine and avionics into it and call it good (for more than a year).  I could do some pretty cool stuff with a M20 frame. 

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One of the recent electronic mags has a self generating source of electricity. Independent of the ship's electrical system, If I remember correctly...

-a-

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2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

One of the recent electronic mags has a self generating source of electricity. Independent of the ship's electrical system, If I remember correctly...

-a-

I was going to be a smartass and say that is what a mag is, but I could see a mag (a magneto is just a generator) without points and an electronic rotor--that would be a happy medium.

It looks like E-mag systems do this.

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I've never used these, but I heard Mike Busch weigh in on his experience with EI systems installed in a few aircraft his company manages.

From what I recall:

  • They were run in EI+magneto configuration (he didn't say which engines, but I assume they had factory split mags)
  • Runup ignition drop is lower when EI is the only source of spark, indicating they're more effective
  • There was a problem with ElectroAir EIs causing less than ideal engine characteristics (maybe higher CHTs? Don't remember) due to malfunctioning MP sensors, which caused the EI spark to advance too far. This seems like a solvable problem but speaks to the issues that can arise in new designs.

The thing I don't get about these is how the backup mag, with fixed timing, works with the EI, which can be advanced. I'm sure there's a straightforward explanation for how this works but I don't know what it is. :)

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I have a 1987 M20J IO360-A3B6, at around the 550hr timeframe I replaced both magnetos with slick mags.  Long story short they both began failing at about 200hours time causing an in air engine problem.  Once I figured out the problem, I decided to get away from magnetos.  Certified must still have one magneto.  I went with ElectroAir, had it installed March 2017 and am still having problems with the ElectroAir, everything from bad plug wires to failing coil pack provided to radio noise to now dealing with EGT anomalies and 120RPM drop on EIS runup check.  Meanwhile the new magneto has been flawless after 100 hrs run time.  I did not notice any perceptible performance improvement either, maybe a knot in cruise.  All-in-all if I had it to do again I would just go with new slick mags.

I did speak with the ElectroAir owner Darrell Poole at Oshkosh and he said he’d get it taken care of.  That hasn’t happened yet.

The ElectroAir and subsequent Powerflo exhaust has netted a total performance improvement of 2-3 knots and maybe 150 FPM in climb.

Hope this helps

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A single drive Bendix magneto is better than two slick mags. Two Bendix mags at also very reliable. 

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14 hours ago, Littlefrogfeet said:

I have a 1987 M20J IO360-A3B6, at around the 550hr timeframe I replaced both magnetos with slick mags.  Long story short they both began failing at about 200hours time causing an in air engine problem.  Once I figured out the problem, I decided to get away from magnetos.  Certified must still have one magneto.  I went with ElectroAir, had it installed March 2017 and am still having problems with the ElectroAir, everything from bad plug wires to failing coil pack provided to radio noise to now dealing with EGT anomalies and 120RPM drop on EIS runup check.  Meanwhile the new magneto has been flawless after 100 hrs run time.  I did not notice any perceptible performance improvement either, maybe a knot in cruise.  All-in-all if I had it to do again I would just go with new slick mags.

I did speak with the ElectroAir owner Darrell Poole at Oshkosh and he said he’d get it taken care of.  That hasn’t happened yet.

The ElectroAir and subsequent Powerflo exhaust has netted a total performance improvement of 2-3 knots and maybe 150 FPM in climb.

Hope this helps

Hmmm. I have had a completely different experience with mine installed Feb 2017 and I have over a 100 hours on it.  

My point I have made before if we start with electronic ignition as is and continue to develop we can get better.  We need to improve the ignition. Just like we needed to improve from my vacuum powered gyro. Development must go on.

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Things that are less appreciated by the day...

  • Slick magnetos...
  • Champion Spark plugs...
  • Gill Batteries...
  • Weldon Fuel pumps...

Good to have options.

Interesting things I have read around MS.  Not from my personal knowledge...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:54 AM, HRM said:

I was going to be a smartass and say that is what a mag is, but I could see a mag (a magneto is just a generator) without points and an electronic rotor--that would be a happy medium.

It looks like E-mag systems do this.

Strictly speaking, the "Emags" are their original design that requires ships power. Their newer version, "PMags" have an internal alternator that takes over from ships power at anything above flight idle. This is what I have in the RV, twin PMags, and granted I only have around 100 hours on the RV so far, but I have yet to have an issue with them, and if I could, would happily install them in any certified 4 cylinder aircraft I owned.

If I were to build another Experimental, I would install EFI with twin ECU's and a backup alternator in preference to the TBI and dual P-Mags though. The efficiency and ability to trim fuel to the individual cylinder make for remarkable performance gains.

Edited by KRviator
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I have a buddy with a RV-8 running the dual P-Mags . Has 500 hrs on them now and they have been flawless. Now when he first built the airplane he was having issues. Turned out that the company that built the engine didn't install "blast tubes". I guess these are to help cool the P-Mags. As soon as they were installed, everything ran perfect. All in all, I guess its a little more critical to make sure those things stay cool.

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Anyone know of a field approval installation of p mags?  Seems like a pretty easy major alteration given identical form fit and function. 

 

Ive been eyeing their development.  3-5 years of experience in the experimental market would be sufficient for me to take the plunge given I’ve had not the best experience with my mags so far.  

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On 1/15/2018 at 8:49 PM, carusoam said:

Things that are less appreciated by the day...

  • Slick magnetos...
  • Champion Spark plugs...
  • Gill Batteries...
  • Weldon Fuel pumps...

Good to have options.

Interesting things I have read around MS.  Not from my personal knowledge...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

One of these is not like the other.   I believe you meant Duke Fuel pumps.  

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I'm still confused about the Weldon / Duke debacle...

Clarence tried to help me.  

I’m just not getting it right for some reason.

Thanks for letting me know.

Best regards,

-a-

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