GRASS FIELDS

[rpcc]

Is the long body too nose heavy and the prop too close to the ground to be capable of grass field operations?   

[carusoam]

No.

But, knowing how to adjust your WnB to work with your skill set are pretty darned helpful.

RPCC, if you add some detail to your avatar, you will probably get some better detail and comparisons.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[rpcc]

carusoam - what are your "minimums" for grass strips?  

[rpcc]

I'm trying to decide between an Ovation/Eagle or an 35 Bonanza - my mission is 2 people within 500 miles of Boston - with some longer trips on my wish list.   I'm concerned that I'm limited to pavement with the long body - I'd appreciate some recommendations from you folks.  If the planes are not designed for that, that's fine, I'd just like to know before going down one path or the other.   

[DonMuncy]

A lot of us don't and won't land on grass, but a substantial number of us do it with  no misgivings. I know a couple of Mooney pilots hangared at grass fields.

[carusoam]

My minimums were related to how well I could manage Airspeed and performing spot landings on pavement.

When I was younger, that seemed to be a lot easier, than when I was older...

Probably just me...

WHen flying with other pilots... I experience their skills.  Landing on the mains and holding off the nose wheel.... could be the pilot verbally mediating the entire Check list, or the the other guy who really likes his AOAi...

Watch some of the videos posted around here.  You will hear stall horns beep, just before the mains touch... the nose wheel gets lowered a couple of seconds later.  When the nose wheel touches the centerline, There is cheering all over MS...

As far as clearance goes... don't fall in any potholes...  paved or unpaved, you need to know about the surface before landing on it.

For Mooney landings on unpaved surfaces... find PiperPainter's videos... fields with cows laying around...

I found runways less than 2000’ challenging enough, and taxiing all over sloshkosh more stressful than required... for me...

Probably a personal risk / reward consideration that is going to be unique for everyone...

If you are using a grass strip, get your skills in order.

another way to look at things... if you take a corvette off road....at 65mph are you going across the golf course, or zipping through a farm field?

There are many golf course smooth runways around the US. 

I probably have fears of throwing expensive equipment into unknown territory.

dealing with unknowns, like will my plane be bogged down in a soft surface after a couple of days being parked... not for me.

Flying from Boston to a point 500nm south, at 180kias... that is for me...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

It depends a lot on the field. I have landed on some that were as nice as fresh pavement and I've landed on some that the strength of the Mooney is the only thing that saved the day.

I would suggest removing your lower gear doors if using grass strips. They will be the first thing to get damaged. 

[MIm20c]

Some long body pilots take off the lower gear doors to prevent damage from soft surface runways.  The 310 hp long bodies have plenty of go for a smooth strip but not enough clearance for off roading IMO. 

[MIm20c]

I think the 2000-2004 ovations had a thin larger diameter two blade prop (when they were touting 192 kts top speed at 2500 rpm).  This prop had minimal clearance and took forever to get off the ground.  Most of these have been replaced with the top prop. 

[Hank]

I like grass fields, but have limited opportunities to visit them. And my C is not a long body. As eye-popping as his videos are, piperpainter also flies a short body C.

[brian]]

My wife and I have landed at a number of grass strips. I even have the A35 hangared at a grass strip. The 35 was designed for that environment. Even so, I have a friend with a M20C a few hangers down from mine and he has no trouble getting in or out of the grass strip. (Reminds me- I’m behind and need to make a couple of low passes to catch up with his count...)

500 miles for two people and grass- sounds like flying for fun. The M20C would do that with one stop. 

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, brian] said:

My wife and I have landed at a number of grass strips. I even have the A35 hangared at a grass strip. The 35 was designed for that environment. Even so, I have a friend with a M20C a few hangers down from mine and he has no trouble getting in or out of the grass strip. (Reminds me- I’m behind and need to make a couple of low passes to catch up with his count...)

500 miles for two people and grass- sounds like flying for fun. The M20C would do that with one stop. 

How do you figure a C needs a fuel stop to go 500nm? Even at 140 knots, that's 3-1/2 hours, at which point I will still have over 2 hours fuel. I've gone 4:40 twice, and landed with 1:15 in the tanks.

And yes, Cs are great for grass fields. I know a couple of C owners based on grass.

[RobertGary1]

I wouldn’t unless I walked the field first. I’ve landed at a lot of grass fields in the Aeronca, maybe 25% would not damage a Mooney. Depends on how deep the gopher holes are that the wheels will drop into  

-Robert

Edited January 8, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Mooneymite]

Saying "grass" is like saying "Texas"...lots of variances.  

Know the field well before committing to a landing your Mooney.  I had a friend rip the gear off of a Champ on a grass field.  I've  operated my C off of our home grass field fo 20 years.  The "grass" doesn't  matter much; what's  under it does.

Know that wet grass can be slipperier than ice.

[brian]]

44 minutes ago, Hank said:

How do you figure a C needs a fuel stop to go 500nm? Even at 140 knots, that's 3-1/2 hours, at which point I will still have over 2 hours fuel. I've gone 4:40 twice, and landed with 1:15 in the tanks.

And yes, Cs are great for grass fields. I know a couple of C owners based on grass.

I wasn’t sure of the fuel capacity of a C. Sounds like that would be the Mooney to look for.

 

Not sure I’ve ever walked a grass strip. Then again, I usually know the owner or it is a well known one like Gaston’s. Grass height and how soggy the field is are things that will more likely get you. If you get used to performance under hard conditions, then you might get a surprise when hot and soggy.

 

[kris_adams]

I landed at Gastons in AR.   It wasn't as smooth as what I was expecting, but nothing bad.  I filmed an older Vtail departing while I was there.  (1:04 into the clip)

-Kris

 

[pinerunner]

A well-groomed grass field is not a big deal. I haven't gone into one yet with with my M20E but eventually I will. I will however be picky about which one and when. The only thing I worry about is taxiing my nosewheel into a pothole. I've seen them mowed over in a way that almost makes them stealth traps. If you're going into less than ideal grass strips maybe you should lean toward a Bonanza. Their gear is known for being pretty rugged and they sit up higher.

I really dig the Mooney efficiency. That's what got me looking at them, when I read that they have a much higher glide ratio than just about any other single engine airplane. 

I would not want to go into a gravel strip. With the prop so close to the ground, I'd be afraid of chewing up my prop tips unnecessarily. Beach landings are out for me because I don't want to get salty sand into any of the seams in my airframe. Salt is a real bane for aluminum aircraft. I'd land near a beach once or twice I guess but mostly I stay inland.

Edited January 10, 2018 by pinerunner
additional info

[1964-M20E]

I operate my F out of a grass strip and based at one no problems.  The belly and wheel wells of the airplane do stay little dirtier than on paved strips though.

A rough rock filled asphalt strip may be worse than grass.

 

 

 

 

[jlunseth]

We just did a thread on grass.  I will say what I said there.  I have a 231, which is a mid-body, not a long body, but with a turbo hung on the nose.  A few years ago I did quite a few grass field landings and takeoffs on grass for a program we have here in Minnesota.  There were, as I recall, 22, grass strips and I landed on all but one.  The first few landings, I and another pilot rented a Skyhawk and did several in one day.  That made me comfortable with the whole idea, so I did the rest in the Mooney (it got me from one field to the next quite alot faster than the Skyhawk), and became comfortable enough that I did several more at fields with asphalt strips, but which had adjacent or intersecting grass. I suppose I have done somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30 in my K and another dozen or so in a Skyhawk (plus one on a frozen lake in a Champ).

I never tried landing on a field just after a rain, but I did not find any of the fields to be wet or muddy or rutted.  All the public grass fields were well kept, and there were no proverbial gopher holes to drop a wheel in.  The only public Minnesota grass field I did not land on was up near Effie, MN.  It is always a good idea to overfly a grass strip before landing, and make sure it appears to be in good condition.  The Effie strip had a patch of swamp grass, so I did not put the wheels on that strip.  All the others were great.

As far as landing and takeoff distance is concerned, grass is different than asphalt.  Grass generates considerably more friction and you can feel it on landing, the landing roll-out is shortened up quite a bit.  My personal minimum on asphalt is 2300, if I had to I would go to 2100 on grass and could probably go a little shorter, but there are no grass strips in MN that are shorter than 2300 as I recall.

Takeoff is even more interesting.  Remember your soft field technique, full back on the elevator and lift the aircraft off into ground effect as soon as it is willing.  Then stay in ground effect and accelerate before rotating.  For this, the length of the manicured grass strip is just part of it.  It does not take much distance to get the plane off the ground and into ground effect.  After that, it does not matter if you are over manicured strip any longer, all that matters is that there is good ground (i.e. no bushes, high grass, trees), to create ground effect.  I noticed this was exactly the way some of the grass strips around here were designed, the manicured strip might be 2300-2400 feet, but there would be an unmowed but otherwise level and clear area for some distance after that.  

I am not saying that as a matter of routine you would want to make takeoffs this way, but it is what the guys do who fly out of these strips constantly.

The only other thing I would say is that there are short fields and there are short fields.  It is not hard to make a good short and soft landing for practice on an asphalt strip with lots of clear glide slope in front of it.  It is another matter to do it over trees, and have to drop the airplane in, and even worse is a fairly common combination of lake followed by trees just ahead of the runway.  Lakes suck, meaning they generate no updraft and sometimes a little downdraft.  So it is necessary to power up a little to maintain speed and altitude to clear the tree(s) ahead of you between the lake and the runway.  Then you need cut the power and drop the plane in after the trees, and Mooneys are not known for wanting to slow down quickly.  Grass field or no grass field, I found this to be the most challenging combination in a Mooney, and there are a number of fields like that in northern MN. 

If I were picking an aircraft for constant grass field duty though, as much as I love my Mooney, I would take the 35.  Shock absorbers, and the wing and prop are higher.  

[rpcc]

Thanks all!  I did some more searching here and found this topic well covered. I should have searched before posting.  

My guess is that every question has been asked and answered here quite well.

  

[brian]]

I'll add one more interesting item for grass strips: wind sheer!

The strip I'm at has the smoothest, best maintained grass I've ever landed on. At 3200' you could probably land that Ovation mentioned earlier. (Never mind the green tipped prop on shutdown.)

BUT - if the wind is blowing from the east, you have an issue to contend with. Along the east side of the runway is a run of TALL trees - 80' or so. That sets up an interesting rolling action as you are landing. With 090@12 or so at the tree tops, you will basically have light and variable on the fields. That will get your attention!

Gastons is know to have this same issue - but from the south (e.g. 180@12) due to the ridge you are landing behind. Not a big deal once you get used to it.

[Hank]

Same thing when I go to the beach. The runway is a slot in the pines, with a parking area to the side at one end. Wind is nice on the ground, but clearing the trees on departure can be exciting, bobbing around and windvaning way off to one side.

Landing is often helped as I drop below the trees and straighten out. But it can still be a strange, swirly transition. 

Most paved fields have much wider open areas for winds to stabilize . . .

[jlunseth]

I agree on both of those.  The other really challenging type of landing is airports perched up on a plateau.  Winds during the day generally create a good updraft, which is helpful although you have to be prepared for the updraft to stop when you get over the strip.  However, there are conditions where downdrafts are created.  My home field, KFCM, is a plateau field although definitely not grass, it serves many jets.  The plateau side is to the south, and on occasion I have had airspeed suddenly fall by more than 10 kts. just because of a downdraft.  I have not run into a grass field that is perched like this, but making short field landings at a perched airport can be interesting.  You need power to counteract the downdraft, and then over the strip you suddenly need no power.  Short and soft works best with a nice stablized approach.  You have to keep your skills up to deal with plateau airports, slot airports (slots in the trees), and the one's where you need to drop the plane in.  A Champ or a nice Maule is built for this, a Mooney not so much.