Do I need my old analog clock?

[Jim Peace]

I am having a GTN 650 and GTX 345 installed.

Are the clocks and timers in these considered legal to get rid of my old analog in the panel?

[ragedracer1977]

I don't believe they are.

[milotron]

I believe a wristwatch would suffice so far as being IFR legal. I have no fixed time piece at all in my plane. Only timer is on the ADF.

 

iain

[ragedracer1977]

6 minutes ago, milotron said:

I believe a wristwatch would suffice so far as being IFR legal. I have no fixed time piece at all in my plane. Only timer is on the ADF.

 

iain

THOMAS C. RICHARDS,Administrator, 
Federal Aviation Administration,
Complainant, 
Docket SE-10306
v.

JOHN L. HAMMERSTRAND,

Respondent.


 

2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged
that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a
passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours,
minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR.
On appeal, respondent repeats the last claim, noting
correctly that VFR operations do not require the clock.
Respondent continues to ignore, however, the fact that the
regulation requires the installed clock whenever IFR operations are conducted, and the record demonstrates that respondent obtained and used an IFR clearance when he left Gillespie Field.
Tr. at 35-36, 114.

6 Whether respondent actually needed such a
clearance is immaterial to the §§ 91.33(a) and 91.165 violations,as are the weather conditions at the time.7Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the cases cited there (a violation of an operational FAR regulation is sufficient to support a finding of a "residual" or "derivative" § 91.9 violation).
It is not clear from the record whether the condition of the
TC violated § 91.33(a) as well. We need not decide this
question, as that violation is otherwise established. See ¶ 2,
infra.

 

6

See also Tr. at 213-214. Respondent's testimony can be
read to admit this point but it is confusing and we do not rely on it.

 

7

See Administrator v. Ewing, 1 NTSB 1192, 1194 (1971) ("it is well settled that the Board does not have authority to pass on the reasonableness or validity of FAA regulations").
8 aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29. Tr. at 51.8

[milotron]

Well, I am happy to be told that I am wrong, and now have an excuse to replace my OAT with an OAT/clock combo. 

My aircraft has been fitted like this for 20 years and nobody caught this?!  It is most certainly IFR certified and lived in USA until four years ago.

 

iain

[jetdriven]

A nice Davtron M803 makes it legal. And more importantly, safer. It displays bus voltage all the time, and since you’re flying an electric airplane, that’s important. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

THOMAS C. RICHARDS,Administrator, 
Federal Aviation Administration,
Complainant, 
Docket SE-10306
v.

JOHN L. HAMMERSTRAND,

Respondent.

.....

 

Too funny, I know John very well, he is in the same hangar complex as I am and he's a fellow A&P/IA & CFI-II. 

 

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

I am having a GTN 650 and GTX 345 installed.

Are the clocks and timers in these considered legal to get rid of my old analog in the panel?

The GTN won't cut it since you can't keep clock info up while you use the box for anything else. The GTX345 almost does the job because it has the timer functions that you can use for holds etc and keep visible the entire time but it still doesn't do the job because it doesn't include actual clock time for clearances like "...Expect further clearance at 22:10Z, time now 22:02Z".....

But better options IMO are a panel clock that include other functions.  Such as my Guardian Co monitor/clock with other functions. 

But other glass panel options such as the G500 / G1000 all have clock and timer functions that can be made visible on the PFD to satisfy the requirements.

[ArtVandelay]

The King KT74 transponder has timer functions.

[Hank]

I really like the 8-day clock with second, red settable hands that don't move! I use them to switch tanks whenever the minute hands line up, and to calculate flight time. Winding and setting it gives cold winter fuel time to evaporate before turning the key, too.  

[Jim Peace]

Thanks all..........

[Jerry 5TJ]

FAR 91.205 (d) 6. “A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.”

 

My G500 shows time in digital format. BUT seconds are not displayed. I’ll check to see if the format can be set to H:M:S. 

[DXB]

12 hours ago, teejayevans said:

The King KT74 transponder has timer functions.

I'd been assuming my KT74 meets the requirement - It has a timer/stopwatch with hours, min, sec that can display at the same time as the transponder code.  But it doesn't have a clock, so I'm wrong - it does not meet the requirement. 

My GTN 650 can display time as a configurable field on it's Default Nav and moving map pages, but I'm never going to set it up that way. It also does not display seconds- probably the deal breaker for legality. It also has a separate timer under utilities, but that can't be viewed on other pages.  

In IR training, I've been using this ASA stopwatch/timer/clock velcro'd to my yoke (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/asaflighttimer.php?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvrfSBRC2ARIsAFumcm9gxzhs0Tw5LwHJWk2Rz_ScJmJE2ZSdECkLKPBjl_T__W8FXusx10saAk9QEALw_wcB#review_tab).  Does having that in and of itself make me legal if it counts as a "proper alteration" as a removable install?   I would think not, but AOPA thinks the question is fuzzy:   https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2010/march/16/shop-talk-aircraft-clocks

I'm gonna puke if y'all end up convincing me that I need to pay ~$200-600 to buy a PMA'd clock and then more to have it installed so it can chew up valuable real estate in my panel 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

I'm gonna puke if y'all end up convincing me that I need to pay ~$200-600 to buy a PMA'd clock and then more to have it installed so it can chew up valuable real estate in my panel 

 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

I'd been assuming my KT74 meets the requirement - It has a timer/stopwatch with hours, min, sec that can display at the same time as the transponder code.  But it doesn't have a clock, so I'm wrong - it does not meet the requirement. 

My GTN 650 can display time as a configurable field on it's Default Nav and moving map pages, but I'm never going to set it up that way. It also does not display seconds- probably the deal breaker for legality. It also has a separate timer under utilities, but that can't be viewed on other pages.  

In IR training, I've been using this ASA stopwatch/timer/clock velcro'd to my yoke (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/asaflighttimer.php?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvrfSBRC2ARIsAFumcm9gxzhs0Tw5LwHJWk2Rz_ScJmJE2ZSdECkLKPBjl_T__W8FXusx10saAk9QEALw_wcB#review_tab).  Does having that in and of itself make me legal if it counts as a "proper alteration" as a removable install?   I would think not, but AOPA thinks the question is fuzzy:   https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2010/march/16/shop-talk-aircraft-clocks

I'm gonna puke if y'all end up convincing me that I need to pay ~$200-600 to buy a PMA'd clock and then more to have it installed so it can chew up valuable real estate in my panel 

You betcha...  My trusty Davtron M877 has been in the panel since the early 90s. It's been with me for a number of panel upgrades. Keeps on ticking, without the ticking.

 

[DXB]

After further consideration, I've decided to wear this timepiece in the cockpit going forward. The size makes it easily readable, and it has a second hand.  The FARs say nothing about the clock having to meet the FAA Administrator's sense of personal style. And I'll know to expect IFR release when parachute pants return to popularity  

 

[Marcopolo]

39 minutes ago, DXB said:

And I'll know to expect IFR release when parachute pants return to popularity 

Uh Oh!!!!!! when did parachute pants go out of popularity?  

 

Ron

[kortopates]

36 minutes ago, DXB said:

After further consideration, I've decided to wear this timepiece in the cockpit going forward. The size makes it easily readable, and it has a second hand.  The FARs say nothing about the clock having to meet the FAA Administrator's sense of personal style. And I'll know to expect IFR release when parachute pants return to popularity  

 

Hah Hah!

But seriously, if you or anyone attempts or has attempted to pass an IFR checkride with your DPE without a working installed clock of some kind please do tell us about the results either way. I have one student that I think wants to try it with a non-working panel clock and a velcro'd stop watch.

[PTK]

When I was looking to replace my OEM clock I wanted one with two time displays. I couldn’t find one and I thought I was being too picky, it’s just a clock after all. Or is it?! But I called Kevin at Davtron and he recommended their M802. I couldn’t be happier! I really like it because it has the two time displays. It permanently displays zulu as well as local time along with the usual timer functions. Davtron makes excellent products. I also have the M655 primarily for an instantaneous display of DA. It has a few other functions incl. OAT. 

 

[Piloto]

Be ware that LCD display clocks freezes at very cold temperatures and the display will show black spots.

José 

[Danb]

21 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

THOMAS C. RICHARDS,Administrator, 
Federal Aviation Administration,
Complainant, 
Docket SE-10306
v.

JOHN L. HAMMERSTRAND,

Respondent.


 

2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged
that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a
passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours,
minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR.
On appeal, respondent repeats the last claim, noting
correctly that VFR operations do not require the clock.
Respondent continues to ignore, however, the fact that the
regulation requires the installed clock whenever IFR operations are conducted, and the record demonstrates that respondent obtained and used an IFR clearance when he left Gillespie Field.
Tr. at 35-36, 114.

6 Whether respondent actually needed such a
clearance is immaterial to the §§ 91.33(a) and 91.165 violations,as are the weather conditions at the time.7Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the cases cited there (a violation of an operational FAR regulation is sufficient to support a finding of a "residual" or "derivative" § 91.9 violation).
It is not clear from the record whether the condition of the
TC violated § 91.33(a) as well. We need not decide this
question, as that violation is otherwise established. See ¶ 2,
infra.

 

6

 

 

 

See also Tr. at 213-214. Respondent's testimony can be
read to admit this point but it is confusing and we do not rely on it.

 

7

 

 

 

See Administrator v. Ewing, 1 NTSB 1192, 1194 (1971) ("it is well settled that the Board does not have authority to pass on the reasonableness or validity of FAA regulations").
8 aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29. Tr. at 51.8

Wow!

[jetdriven]

8 hours ago, DXB said:

After further consideration, I've decided to wear this timepiece in the cockpit going forward. The size makes it easily readable, and it has a second hand.  The FARs say nothing about the clock having to meet the FAA Administrator's sense of personal style. And I'll know to expect IFR release when parachute pants return to popularity  

 

Did you read the court filing where a watch doesn’t qualify?

[DXB]

20 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Did you read the court filing where a watch doesn’t qualify?

Yup - actually picked up one of these on ebay today.  Hopefully the FAA likes the PMA'd look better.  It's old school in its own way and will have to do until I can get my Davtron panel mounted.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I like that the clock on the G500 never needs setting as it gets GPS time and converts to Zulu.  Of course at around $27,000 installed it’s a pricey clock.  

(All ya’all know that GPS time isn’t the same as UTC, right?  GPS time has no leap seconds. )

[DXB]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I like that the clock on the G500 never needs setting as it gets GPS time and converts to Zulu.  Of course at around $27,000 installed it’s a pricey clock.  

(All ya’all know that GPS time isn’t the same as UTC, right?  GPS time has no leap seconds. )

I actually think this might be ok, as is the UTC clock on my GTN 650, which also does not show seconds but can be configured to display on both Map and Default Nav screens.  I note some of the Davtron clocks, including the used one I just bought in a panic, also don't show seconds for the clock, just for the timer.  They also don't show both clock and timer functions simultaneously, just one or the other.  The timer on my KT74 transponder also seems perfectly adequate to meet the regs.  Whether velcro-ing a timer to the panel is adequate also seems open for interpretation - it is not addressed by the cited court case.

[gsxrpilot]

I passed my IFR checkride back in 2009 in a Cherokee with a digital egg timer velcro'd to the panel. It was only a timer and didn't display time. I was wearing a wristwatch at the time which displayed both local and GMT. 

There was no GPS or moving map display in the panel and I used the egg timer to time holds, let-downs, procedure turns, and partial panel turns. The DPE never said anything about it.