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Introduction and owner question...


Deadstick

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Hello all,

I am Waltermittying here, and looking at maybe buying an older Mooney 201, or maybe even older (if the panel and other considerations are decent).

Sick of driving 10 hours or more to get somewhere!

I am a professional pilot, and used to instruct in a 201 in the mid 80's. I also have an (unused ) A&P , and a fairly complete set of tools. 

I am adding up costs, and trying to figure out if I want to jump in. Hangar is 3K, I figure what? 4 or 5K for an annual, and another 1K on oil and what not. Insurance, I've not got a quote on, but would like to keep purchase price in the 70K area if I can find one with a waas gps and adsb out, hopefully mid time engine and nothing hiding in the closet. 11 gallons an hour. I'm sure I left out other costs such as operational items like ramp and landing fees. It would mostly be just my Wife and myself on trips, which I would mostly fly VFR unless I found one with a GREAT panel. (at my price point, not likely)

 

Anyway...... My main question: What is the least amount of hours you fly in a year, and are still GLAD you own your airplane?

Another option I would strongly consider is a partnership, but know from seeing others that is fraught with uncertainties also. I live in Upstate N.Y., and finding a suitable partner may not be easy. I would love to have one available to rent, but alas, this is not the 80's anymore. (When I used to instruct, the company had everything form a Tomahawk to an Aztec, 201, Saratoga, etc.)

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I've owned my Mooney for 20 years.  I'm still glad I own it.

To me, the key to satisfactory ownership is to never justify ownership.  Not on any basis except pure pleasure of ownership.

And never, ever add up all the costs.

Be happy and enjoy.

;)

 

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I live in Central GA so probably less for hangar for me.  Hangar runs $2k for me. Insurance on 60k hull is $900. My annuals have varied. Last one was at an MSC and ran close to $9k but I took care of some non-airworthy affecting squawks. 

I fly 50-70 hours per year. I know I'm losing money but it's worth it. Having a plane at my disposal 24/7 is great. I have kids in Atlanta and Orlando. Seeing them is just a 1-2 hr flight. 

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All I can say is when looking to buy a 40 year old aircraft the more due diligence you do up front, and the more somebody else spent on it before you buy, the less you will likely spend after purchase. I fly for work and pleasure abut 150 hrs per year and have never regretted one cent I have spent, but I do not in any way shape or form want to know how much I have spent. 

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I fly 80 hours per year and would do it again. My two annuals have been $2K each give or take, which was mostly labor for my A&P IA. I assisted with each and had some non-airworthy things done. After the first year I had to replace the propeller at $7k. My insurance is $1.5K at $80k valuation but I'm a low time VFR rated pilot. Your costs should be considerably less given your A&P and professional pilot experience... 

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2 hours ago, Bartman said:

. . . have never regretted one cent I have spent, but I do not in any way shape or form want to know how much I have spent. 

If you want it, buy a good plane and fly it whenever. Add up the total airplane costs after adding up your total car ownership costs, and don't forget to include a square footage allocation for the garage at home (if you have one). Just pay the bills as soon as they come due!

I've been flying my Mooney in blissful ignorance for over ten years now, and I'm still not bankrupt . . . .

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Considering that it is just you and your wife an older F, E, or even a C with a great panel may be a good option. Certainly an E with a very good IFR panel and Autopilot may work very well with your budget and still give you the speed you are looking for while keeping maintenance cost down.


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Buy the plane and find a partner or two to split the costs with if ownership, operating costs and low usage are concerns.  You can try to find a partner and then buy the plane, but this can be a challenge.  Best bet, buy the plane (so it's real) and then find a partner.  Once you have a bird parked in a hanger, finding a partner to split costs with will be much easier. 

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Holy cow...

Cars are expensive.

Planes are expensive.

Kids are... Wonderful... :)

When you add up lifetime expenses, they get quite large.

Fortunately, a well bought Mooney can last a lifetime of flying.

70amu for an M20J is at the lower end of the range. Do some studying, you may find this to be a good idea for you.  WAAS GPS and lower end of the range are typically on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Welcome aboard, Deadstick.

I am a big fan of monthly budgets.  But, There is no way I’m going to push the report button that adds them up.

Best regards,

-a-

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8 hours ago, GeorgePerry said:

Buy the plane and find a partner or two to split the costs with if ownership, operating costs and low usage are concerns.  You can try to find a partner and then buy the plane, but this can be a challenge.  Best bet, buy the plane (so it's real) and then find a partner.  Once you have a bird parked in a hanger, finding a partner to split costs with will be much easier. 

A lot harder than it looks I've wanted a partner for yrs no joy.

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I have a fixed budget of 12k a year. If I run out of budget before I run out of year, I am polishing parts till the budget catches up. I have a reserve for engine and prop so that won't slow me down. I flew 110 hours last year. That is $4400 in fuel, $3960 in MX flying reserves, the rest is hangar and insurance.

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Deadstick,

Some good advice above.

I'd just add that the acquisition cost is not nearly as significant as the on going costs. Even if you pay $10 or $20k more than you ought to it will not seem very important 3 years later. 

The important considerations are the airframe condition, the engine time, and the panel. The interior and the paint are relatively less expensive to fix and are not critical to flight though they are a matter of pride.

I'm averaging 80 hours per year for the 6 years I've had this '66E. The fixed costs: hangar in rural NC, insurance on $100k hull, and owner assist annual inspection run $5000 for my '66E. Garmin subscriptions for newer boxes might add $500-$800 if you're flying IFR. 

It's harder to predict annual maintenance and upgrades costs. The former will include brakes, tires, batteries, mufflers, starters, alternators, and other systems common to all planes and subject to failure at any time. The history of how the previous owner(s) has treated maintenance issues will affect how much you have to deal with in the first year or 2. Finding a plane that has obviously had a lot of TLC and has flown regularly is worth a great deal. Our older Mooneys are not generally maintenance hogs.

My E cruises at ~150 ktas on ~9 gph. I would figure about $50/hour for fuel and oil changes. That's ~$0.30/(statute)mile. The fixed costs ($5000) might be $0.40/mile. So after the GOK factor is applied figure $1.00 per statute mile. Nice round number and sounds a lot better than the equivalent $175/hour. :rolleyes:  

 

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Just to add to Bob’s comments, as he stated the acquisition cost is the tip of the aviation iceberg. When it comes to aviation related expenses, I look at this endeavor as an all in expenditure. I get a kick out of people who say that don’t count an engine reserve as an operating cost. That is true if you have plans on selling, at a depreciated value, the plane before the engine needs to be done. If you buy a plane with 1,500 hours and fly 100 hours a year, you might get 5 or more years out of the engine. But what if you don’t?

The same goes for the extras spent on aviation. Spending a grand on a headset could be a grand spent on renovating the bathroom. Where new owners get into trouble is that they don’t have enough dispensable income to cover the full cost of flying. At a minimum, it may lead to uneasy conversations with the significant other or in the worst case, the plane sits because there isn’t money to operate or repair it.

Owning your own plane has a ton of benefits. Pride of ownership just being one of them. Knowing the exact condition of your plane over what might be on the flight line at the local FBO is another. As a 26 year owner, owning is certainly in the reach of every pilot. You just need to understand that there will be costs associated with it both expected and unexpected.


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Moreover it difficult to find one who would put in the funds and more importantly the effort to fly to near professional standards, meaning flying with the utmost care and respect necessary to be a competent safe pilot for decades. The chances I had to add a partner would cause loss of sleep along with me wondering when I turn the key will all be right. It's hard to put in words without offending people picking a partner similar to getting married,there's lots of divorces out there. It's a lot more than feeding a hungry Bravo

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22 minutes ago, Danb said:

Moreover it difficult to find one who would put in the funds and more importantly the effort to fly to near professional standards, meaning flying with the utmost care and respect necessary to be a competent safe pilot for decades. The chances I had to add a partner would cause loss of sleep along with me wondering when I turn the key will all be right. It's hard to put in words without offending people picking a partner similar to getting married,there's lots of divorces out there. It's a lot more than feeding a hungry Bravo

If I do a pros and cons ledger for shared ownership the only "pro" is money - shared costs. The other side on the ledger far outweighs that single advantage. OSISTM

(I sold half of my first Mooney back in the day when the plane needed a new engine, My partner was a well qualified pilot (CFI, ATP) who did not use the plane very often but I bought him out after a couple of years. I wanted to add a Stormscope or an STEC or paint the plane, I forget which, but he was happy with what we had.) 

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21 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

The fixed costs ($5000) might be $0.40/mile. So after the GOK factor is applied figure $1.00 per statute mile. Nice round number and sounds a lot better than the equivalent $175/hour. :rolleyes:  

Which is in line with the GSA POV mileage reimbursement rate (2018) of $1.21

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On 1/2/2018 at 4:03 PM, Deadstick said:

Hello all,

I am Waltermittying here, and looking at maybe buying an older Mooney 201, or maybe even older (if the panel and other considerations are decent).

Sick of driving 10 hours or more to get somewhere!

I am a professional pilot, and used to instruct in a 201 in the mid 80's. I also have an (unused ) A&P , and a fairly complete set of tools. 

I am adding up costs, and trying to figure out if I want to jump in. Hangar is 3K, I figure what? 4 or 5K for an annual, and another 1K on oil and what not. Insurance, I've not got a quote on, but would like to keep purchase price in the 70K area if I can find one with a waas gps and adsb out, hopefully mid time engine and nothing hiding in the closet. 11 gallons an hour. I'm sure I left out other costs such as operational items like ramp and landing fees. It would mostly be just my Wife and myself on trips, which I would mostly fly VFR unless I found one with a GREAT panel. (at my price point, not likely)

 

Anyway...... My main question: What is the least amount of hours you fly in a year, and are still GLAD you own your airplane?

Another option I would strongly consider is a partnership, but know from seeing others that is fraught with uncertainties also. I live in Upstate N.Y., and finding a suitable partner may not be easy. I would love to have one available to rent, but alas, this is not the 80's anymore. (When I used to instruct, the company had everything form a Tomahawk to an Aztec, 201, Saratoga, etc.)

I think you, being a professional pilot and an A&P and with your extensive Mooney experience, are in a perfect position to own.

As far as costs, imo, buy the Mooney you can comfortably afford and don’t bother with partnerships or rentals or doing comparisons and how many hours needed to break even etc etc. Rentals generally become prohibitive especially for overnight trips and finding a Mooney to rent is not easy. Having the keys to my own Mooney that I know intimately well and no one else flies and for which I’m the sole decision maker is paramount. And you are in a better position than most to control some costs to a degree. As an example, your estimation of 4-5K for annuals is high especially for an A&P like yourself.

Also one subtle thing that sometimes is not considered is that you will recover some costs when and if you sell. But even if you don't sell you still have a 100% equity position in your own aircraft. Both of these lower your actual costs of ownership. 

 

 

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Like others have said don't focus too much on cost of ownership.  Make sure you have some disposable income to spend on flying.  Some people have bass boats for dishing, fishing or hunting camps etc.  I have a plane and a hangar.  I figure my trip cost is what I pay for fuel and tie down at other airports.  Insurance, hangar, annual are just expense that I pay regardless of how much I fly.  The more you fly the lower the cost per hour will be for a small increase in total annual costs (mostly cost of fuel).  I have been averaging about 100 hours a year since I bought a plane and I have owned an E model and F model since 2010 so I'm working on year 8 of ownership.

I will say this keep you plane as close to your home as possible and practical it will increase use and enjoyment.  I would like to have mine a little closer but costs and hangars make that hard to do so I drive 45 minutes to the plane.

 

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I was asking this same question about four years ago. I had the funds to buy an airplane, but really wondered if I'd use it, or even have time to use it. Or if it would be like so many boat owners who only use it on Memorial and Labor Days and the rest of the time it sits.

So I went the conservative route and bought a '64 M20C. Because I was way under my budget, I could afford to get the nicest one I could find and was still under budget. Two years and 400 hours later, the wife and I KNEW that we knew how to make use of an airplane. So we sold the C and moved up to an M20K 252. 

We've used the Mooney in ways we never imagined prior to being airplane owners.

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Welcome Deadstick, based on 2 points 70k budget and mostly only two on board I opine that your best choice would be the best equipped and modded out E model as you don't need the extra space and the E will be the fastest in your price range. From all I have learned to find a J at that price with your needs would be impossible. A nice F would be but you don't need the room and you would likely find a nicer E at your price point.  As for cost of ownership while it's true that flying more lowers your cost per hour it's going to increase the total bottom line. More usage simple means more expensive sadly we don't put near as many hours on our plane and most flights for us are under an hour each way. Some on this space would say I don't deserve a Mooney because I'm not flying it the way it should be i.e. Long cross country. But I can bet my annual cost bottom line is less even though my cost per hour is more.

good luck with your search shopping for and knowing you are going to be purchasing your own airplane has to be one of the greatest things one can do.

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4 hours ago, Danb said:

Moreover it difficult to find one who would put in the funds and more importantly the effort to fly to near professional standards, meaning flying with the utmost care and respect necessary to be a competent safe pilot for decades. The chances I had to add a partner would cause loss of sleep along with me wondering when I turn the key will all be right. It's hard to put in words without offending people picking a partner similar to getting married,there's lots of divorces out there. It's a lot more than feeding a hungry Bravo

Aircraft partnerships are almost like a marriage.  You definitely need to find the right partner or it'll cost you big-time!

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