Get the rating.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Night flight last month above a low layer and below a high overcast.  No clouds and visibility unlimited.  Technically it was VMC.  

This was the view out front:

Get the rating. 

[David_H]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Night flight last month above a low layer and below a high overcast.  No clouds and visibility unlimited.  Technically it was VMC.  

This was the view out front:

Get the rating. 

That's pretty much how it normally looks when flying over extremely rural areas... unless it's clear enough to see the lights of the next city.

While some people don't like night flying VFR for this reason, I really enjoy it. You're really flying by instruments at that point and the IFR training would be helpful without a doubt. I suppose it all comes down to what you're comfortable with.  

The air is usually calmer and less people are on with flight following at night.

I tend to be more concerned with animals wondering onto the runways at night.

Edited January 3, 2018 by David_H

[Skates97]

7 hours ago, thinwing said:

Weather was forecast for Vfr under high pressure and had been that way all of Xmas week...beautiful flying weather in N AZ and NV...on the way home over the Sierras this was the view however....so just get the rating

This was the view flying home from AZ to SoCal on New Years Day. Those mountains on the distant horizon were 150 miles away. Planned the trip to be coming into Palm Springs by dark where I have flown at night quite a bit and know there is plenty of light for ground reference the rest of the way home. Get the rating if you want. If you aren't going to get the rating then plan well, execute well, and be ready to change plans when necessary. 

It made for a beautiful sunset as well. 

[Skates97]

5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Night flight last month above a low layer and below a high overcast.  No clouds and visibility unlimited.  Technically it was VMC.  

This was the view out front:

Get the rating. 

Or, if you aren't IFR rated and current, don't fly at night between layers, or over sparsely populated areas. I love flying the LA basin at night,  however I won't fly over the desert at night because there aren't enough lights for ground reference. Also, don't get caught above a layer like the guy in the first post that started this whole VFR/IFR debate...again... 

Know your limitations and the limitations of your plane, including your limitations if you are Instrument Rated. Plan well, fly safe, and have fun. 

[Bryan1016]

I got my IR in the mid 80s. We had a six pack and needles. Upgrades were DME and a/p. In my opinion, GPS and on board weather have improved situational awareness such that VFR has more utility now than an IR rating back then for most GA aircraft.
We used to get momentarily disoriented (lost) or happen upon unexpected weather and not know what was on the back side. I don’t miss those days, ever. Glad to have IR, but...
If you really want to be a better pilot, get a tail wheel endorsement...just my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bryan1016 said:

I got my IR in the mid 80s. We had a six pack and needles. Upgrades were DME and a/p. In my opinion, GPS and on board weather have improved situational awareness such that VFR has more utility now than an IR rating back then for most GA aircraft.
We used to get momentarily disoriented (lost) or happen upon unexpected weather and not know what was on the back side. I don’t miss those days, ever. Glad to have IR, but...
If you really want to be a better pilot, get a tail wheel endorsement...just my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Along with the tail wheel check out, some aerobatics training(unusual attitude training) and glider pilots license(engine out comfort)

Clarence

[Danb]

4 hours ago, Skates97 said:

This was the view flying home from AZ to SoCal on New Years Day. Those mountains on the distant horizon were 150 miles away. Planned the trip to be coming into Palm Springs by dark where I have flown at night quite a bit and know there is plenty of light for ground reference the rest of the way home. Get the rating if you want. If you aren't going to get the rating then plan well, execute well, and be ready to change plans when necessary. 

It made for a beautiful sunset as well. 

Beautiful 

[Shiny moose]

1 hour ago, Bryan1016 said:

I got my IR in the mid 80s. We had a six pack and needles. Upgrades were DME and a/p. In my opinion, GPS and on board weather have improved situational awareness such that VFR has more utility now than an IR rating back then for most GA aircraft.
We used to get momentarily disoriented (lost) or happen upon unexpected weather and not know what was on the back side. I don’t miss those days, ever. Glad to have IR, but...
If you really want to be a better pilot, get a tail wheel endorsement...just my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bryan,

I agree with your statement. It was in the late 80s flying a 172RG IFR with Dual VORs, an ADF ( lots of NDB approaches)  and a wing leveler for my first corporate job. I am really thankful for the wing leveler it saved my ass many times as a young inexperienced pilot, the icing was the worst of it though( Midwest winter flying in a NA airplane) . When  company upgraded to a light twin with a loran and an RNAV I though I was in aviation heaven. Then the GPS came, yikes I could fly direct, and overlay of those pesky NDB approaches. 

I often thought my piloting  skill went away when I took a job flying a Beechjet. FMS took away the need for situational awareness, autopilot on all the time(company rules and the airplane flew like a MAC truck anyway) and another pilot to help out with workload. Took a 12 year hiatus from flying and came back to all this IPad/ glass,fore flight,  Vnav GPS,WASS, Yikes again . So much information!!

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

You forgot Reason #4:  I'm still working, and need to stick to some sort of schedule when traveling, so that I can be home to go to work. Instrument flying lets me come much closer to that than simple VFR does. It increases the utility of my plane.

and #5, you want to be the safest most proficient pilot you can be when you are flying yourself and your family anyplace and because you are an eagle scout and I guess a badger, you want to be prepared

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Night flight last month above a low layer and below a high overcast.  No clouds and visibility unlimited.  Technically it was VMC.  

This was the view out front:

Get the rating. 

That is night VMC over the gulf.

[Ftlausa]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

That is night VMC over the gulf.

And even when there are a visible moon and stars over the ocean, their reflections in the water can seriously obscure where the horizon is.  Night over open water is in reality IMC.    

[eman1200]

I think what I'm gathering out of this is that it's good to have your IR although it's not bad to not have it.  Having your IR could possibly make you a safer pilot although being VFR doesn't make you an unsafe pilot, and in some cases a VFR pilot could in fact be safer than an unsafe IR pilot, depending on how safe the VFR or IR pilot is, or isn't.  It would be beneficial to get your IR although it would be more beneficial to be a proficient VFR pilot than an incompetent IR pilot. You may benefit from being an IR pilot, check with your CFII to see if IR training is right for you.  Side effects of flying in IMC with or without your IR could lead to dizziness, unusual attitudes, and spatial disorientation.  Flying in IMC should not be done on an empty stomach, unless you are going on a burger run then it is perfectly acceptable.  

I think I got it, clear as soup (the non-clear kind of soup, otherwise that wouldn't make any sense).

[Bob - S50]

10 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

I think what I'm gathering out of this is that it's good to have your IR although it's not bad to not have it.  Having your IR could possibly make you a safer pilot although being VFR doesn't make you an unsafe pilot, and in some cases a VFR pilot could in fact be safer than an unsafe IR pilot, depending on how safe the VFR or IR pilot is, or isn't.  It would be beneficial to get your IR although it would be more beneficial to be a proficient VFR pilot than an incompetent IR pilot. You may benefit from being an IR pilot, check with your CFII to see if IR training is right for you.  Side effects of flying in IMC with or without your IR could lead to dizziness, unusual attitudes, and spatial disorientation.  Flying in IMC should not be done on an empty stomach, unless you are going on a burger run then it is perfectly acceptable.  

I think I got it, clear as soup (the non-clear kind of soup, otherwise that wouldn't make any sense).

Yep.  Having an instrument rating is nice, but it can be dangerous if you aren't proficient.  And I specifically said proficient, not current.  You can be current but not proficient.  Being proficient includes not only knowing IFR procedures but your equipment as well.  You can die just as quickly if you are instrument rated but lose situation awareness because you can't figure out how to get that fancy GPS to do what you need.  Set your own personal minimums based on YOUR proficiency.  Anywhere from all the way down to approach minimums up to only using it to punching through a thin cloud layer.

And remember, don't let anybody hurry you.  If you aren't ready, tell them you need delaying vectors.  And just because you fly a fast airplane doesn't mean you always have to go fast.  Slowing down gives you a lot more time to review the approach, load the approach and then fly the approach.

[Bartman]

My CFII told me this and asked me to think about it. 

If the weather is good, go VFR.  If the weather is bad, go IFR.  If the weather is too bad for IFR, then you might still be able to go VFR. 

[Danb]

What a dumb CFI

[Bob_Belville]

You won't benefit much from being IFR qualified and equipped unless you plan to use your plane for cross country travel and to spend one or more nights away from your home base.

[clh]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

You won't benefit much from being IFR qualified and equipped unless you plan to use your plane for cross country travel and to spend one or more nights away from your home base.

I actually disagree with this.   Most of my flights that I now complete when I used to cancel are in the 250-300 mi range.  Using the IR to enable me to make it out and home in the same day.  We have a lot of morning low clouds.  With no IR that meant that we used to cancel the flight because we could not be sure when the overcast would break.  Now, we just file, and punch through the cloud layer and continue on....  We are home that evening.

Wifie likes to be in the air for two hrs rather than on the road or in traffic for 4+.

 

[steingar]

5 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Set your own personal minimums based on YOUR proficiency.  Anywhere from all the way down to approach minimums up to only using it to punching through a thin cloud layer.

Personally, I think if your personal minimums aren't the approach minimums you need to spend some quality time with you CFI.  Folks have died because they wouldn't go down to minimums.

That said, I am as yet still a lowly VFR pilot with aspirations.

[bradp]

@steingar personal mins can be higher than app mins but you need to be able to train to a level of proficiency to ensure that you can absolutely fly any approach to mins.  

Re VFR vs IFR thing. Yes IFR ratings dont supplant basic decision making  

Somewhat similar story here : 

 

 

Even though the ADM was poor in this scenario, the fact that this guy was able to fly instruments (and possibly partial panel) through a cloud layer saved his life.  Even though he was neither proficient nor current. It doesn't hurt to have the additional education.  Rule of primacy kicked in and he was able to keep the blue side up.  

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, Bartman said:

My CFII told me this and asked me to think about it. 

If the weather is good, go VFR.  If the weather is bad, go IFR.  If the weather is too bad for IFR, then you might still be able to go VFR. 

That SORT of makes sense if bad IFR is icing conditions or mountain departures--then you'd want to stay out of IMC anyway.

[jaylw314]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:03 AM, carusoam said:

Flying under the hood is a bit of a drag.  Very confining compared to the comfort of being in IMC, and being able to look unimpeded around the whole cockpit.  No accidental peeps that can get in the way of the training...

My wife thinks it's strange when we go into IMC and I turn off the autopilot so I can fly manually.

[DXB]

6 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

And remember, don't let anybody hurry you.  If you aren't ready, tell them you need delaying vectors.  And just because you fly a fast airplane doesn't mean you always have to go fast.  Slowing down gives you a lot more time to review the approach, load the approach and then fly the approach.

I appreciate the wisdom - am still in the "overwhelmed" phase of training and haven't learned to walk (maintain heading and altitude) and chew gum (do everything else) at the same time.  It made me think of this piece:  https://airfactsjournal.com/2016/04/5-things-every-ifr-pilot-needs-say/   Would the best phrasing be "vectors for time" per the article and/or "delaying vectors"?  Neither is in the glossary.

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, Bartman said:

My CFII told me this and asked me to think about it. 

If the weather is good, go VFR.  If the weather is bad, go IFR.  If the weather is too bad for IFR, then you might still be able to go VFR. 

Yes, this is true. There are often times when the weather is great down at the VFR altitudes and bad up in the IFR min altitudes. Especially out west where the IFR altitudes are very high. There are times I'll go VFR because the weather isn't good enough for IFR (usually ice up at those altitudes). 

 

I will say that I do warn students that instrument skills are far more perishable than VFR skills. If you don't plan on using your instrument rating immediately after getting it you will lose the proficiency required to keep it. I've jumped into a plane with pilots who haven't been in a plane in years and can get them good to go for VFR flying in short order, but new instrument pilots who let their instrument skills laps for a year are set back substantially. 

-Robert, CFII

Edited January 3, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Hank]

8 hours ago, Bartman said:

 

If the weather is good, go VFR.  If the weather is bad, go IFR.  If the weather is too bad for IFR, then you might still be able to go VFR. then go CAR. 

FTFY! This is what usually works for me, as widespread Low IMC is more prevalent that icing around here.

[RLCarter]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

Personally, I think if your personal minimums aren't the approach minimums you need to spend some quality time with you CFI.  Folks have died because they wouldn't go down to minimums.

That said, I am as yet still a lowly VFR pilot with aspirations.

You train to the published minimums, but someone's personal mins might be higher due to turbulence, wind, equipment or what ever might be going on. People die because they go past their personal mins not because they won't go lower.