TargetDriver

Need Info on arriving in the 21st century - Garmin GTN 750

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Gents,  I believe I have a chance to buy a Garmin GTN 750 at an incredible price and it includes the unit 12/28v, connector back plate, rack,  and  Garmin GA 35 WAAS GPS antenna AND a current 8130.   The unit was working perfectly when removed for an upgrade.

My 1980 M20K is 100% original with the King silver crown package so I have a lot of changes coming due real soon to get ADS-b compliant.  I've been looking at the Lynx 9000 thinking I didn't have a GPS source, but with the GTN 750, solved.

I know the install costs are going to be astronomical but I plan on walking into a shop and handing them a pile of compatible parts and say "make it pretty ...and work", all at one time.   I already have a JPI 830 in a box waiting, so also want to get a new comm panel, (my plane only has 2 place intercom plugs-need to add 2 rear) and of courses a new ADS-B transponder.  (decisions, decisions) 

I'm pulling the entire interior for a complete upgrade and to upholster all of the interior panels as well.  I plan on having all the interior out when I take it to the avionics shop (still need to find a good reasonable one within a couple hours flight time of Sacramento) so its quicker and easier for them to install wiring, antenna, etc.

I'm a recreational flyer in my Mooney and wouldn't give a second thought flying back to the Midwest or farther from northern California so dont necessarily need all the latest and greatest digital wiz bangs, but it will be nice to step into modern times with a real GPS Panel unit.   (KNS-80 and iPad up to now).

Is there anything I should know up front or should be planning for to avoid having to go back 2 steps later on?   I've attached a current panel pic to help. Hope it comes through ok.

Thanks all !   This site rocks !!!   Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone !

(Can you tell I'm happy to be back in the US for the holidays from Afghanland !!?)

 

 

 

20160920_191042.jpg

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I just went through this, starting with almost the exact same panel as yours.  $35k in avionics later, it' s amazing. The entire portion of the panel in front of the copilot seat is now blank and ready for an ipad mini mount. The center stack is dominated by the GTN 750 with the new PS engineering 8000BT sitting above that, and the old #2 KX155 nav/com and old KAP 150 autopilot below it. I opted to put in the Garmin ADS-B remote mount, so it's controlled by the GTN and frees up panel space. I removed the old ADF, old GPS, old Com 1, old intercom, old KNS 80 rnav, old transponder, and old am/fm stereo.  I moved the vacuum attitude indicator to the old adf indicator hole and put in a new G5 front and center.   The new panel is so excellent and I got 12 extra pounds of useful with all of those old, heavy radios removed. Bonus! Good luck with your decisions.      

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Start with the end in mind.

Figure out what you will remove and what you are going to add and how you want it to look when you are done. For example, if you have the JPI 830 installed, where would it go? It takes up a bit more room than the RMI will give back by taking out the ADF, so are you removing other round pieces, or how will you make it fit? And what are the other items in your pile of compatible parts you will be adding?

Microsoft Visio works well to lay out a panel, but even if all you have is a piece of paper and a pencil, sketch out how your panel will end up when you do what you want to it. Think about instrument scans for flying IMC, engine monitoring, etc. Any plan that opens up the panel the fewest times possible is going to be the winner.

And welcome back state-side.

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Oldguy, thank you for a great method to approach the over haul.  I'll start the panel sketch to get the general layout planned out.  I did notice that the JPI 830 didnt show face panel dimensions with the offset on the site, which would help to preplan some. It does look like it will encroach on the next hole location. 

300, thank you !  so glad to hear someone else has been down this path...and almost exactly the same. That helps a lot as well.  I figured there had to be a big weight savings because I want all that old hardware removed but didn't expect that much !  Great.  I haven't considered the G5 yet but a guy at Sarasota Av that said I'd have to have an HSI as well...dont have one, not sure if that's mandatory.  I'll compare the costs and figure out which one to go with.  I have looked at the PS Eng 8000BT and already had my eye on that one. Had planned on keeping one of the KX radios for the back up. I'm guessing the remote mount ADS-b saves on panel space but running everything in the GTN 750?

I used to have a large waterjet at work and a full machine shop that would be perfect for just cutting entirely new instrument panels. Sure wish I had that now !!! 

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15 hours ago, TargetDriver said:

Oldguy, thank you for a great method to approach the over haul.  I'll start the panel sketch to get the general layout planned out.  I did notice that the JPI 830 didnt show face panel dimensions with the offset on the site, which would help to preplan some. It does look like it will encroach on the next hole location. 

See if this helps:

 

JPI 830.PNG

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Wow, fantastic !  thanks Oldguy.  My panel design begins...  and, found out I've bought myself a GTN 750 tomorrow ! 

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I would add Garmin G5 HSI for your 750 indicator. It will help make room for the EDM 830 in the pilot panel and also add GPS Steering to your autopilot which will make it work much better. I would for sure get rid of the KNS 80 and #1 com. It would also be a good time to change to a ADS-b transponder like the GTX 345. At a minimum for the audio panel a PMA 7000B would use part the KMA 24 wiring. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 3:19 PM, TargetDriver said:

I'm guessing the remote mount ADS-b saves on panel space but running everything in the GTN 750?

If you do the GTX-345 go ahead and do the remote mounted 345R. I didn't and got the 345 but my GTN-650 can control it and I lost some screen space due to the transponder code is always displayed on the 650. Not sure if the transponder code display can be disabled on the 650/750 for the 345. Happy install...

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You can remove the remote transponder controls and get your two data fields back. I have the 345r but I have a PMA8000Bt audio panel and thus I have those 4 data fields. 

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I'm in a similar situation with my 231.  All original king equipment.  I'm going to try to accomplish my panel upgrade in 3  steps to keep it financially feasible.   Hopping by the end it will look similar to @gsxrpilot

Step 1 will happen next week when I install my EDM-900. and pulling out the ADF and indicator.

Step 2 will be starting over with the radio stack.  Only reusing my KX155 as nav 2.  The GPS/NAV comm will be either a 530W, IFD-540, or A GTN 750. All depends on what kind of deal I can find between now and then.  I plan to add a G5 to replace my HSI and give me GPSS. 

Step 3 will be a shiny new panel, hopefully with an aspen.  Then the G5 will be a backup AI.  Everything will be flush mounted.  

@TargetDriver You may want to trade the 830 for a 900.  That way you can get ride of all the factory engine gauges and gain a bunch of panel space.  The 900 runs about 2K more but the installation will be the same.  

Cheers,

Dan

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14 hours ago, Stanton R said:

I would add Garmin G5 HSI for your 750 indicator. It will help make room for the EDM 830 in the pilot panel and also add GPS Steering to your autopilot which will make it work much better. I would for sure get rid of the KNS 80 and #1 com. It would also be a good time to change to a ADS-b transponder like the GTX 345. At a minimum for the audio panel a PMA 7000B would use part the KMA 24 wiring. 

We kept our KNS80 and I like it.  It's nice having actual DME and a second ILS receiver.

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DanM,  I initially thought about the same game plan. Doing it in several stages to help spread the cost out but after realizing how much it costs each time to crack open the panel...geez.  Thousands each time for the same repetitive action of pulling the panel... I'm going to try to swing getting as much done while its open as possible, even if it hurts a little.  The overall gain on value and usability has to be worth the extra cost.  

This may sound odd but I like some steam gauges on the panel. Unless the lottery gods smile and I could buy a brand new plane all glass, I dont think I'll be looking to go completely glass.  I do fly that way at my job, all instruments all the time so it's nice to get back into a GA cockpit and see a little old-school.

All my bird has now is the factory TiT and EGT so the 830 will be a major step up.  I think at this time I'd rather spend the extra couple G's on a G5 to couple to the GTN like you said, instead of stepping up to the JPI 900. 

Like yours, my ADF and indicator are history in this upgrade and I want to ditch the Sigtronics intercom with a nice panel one, probably a Garmin 340 or PS Eng 8000BT maybe. #2 KX155 stays for a second radio, the LORAN boat anchor goes. Still undecided on the KNS 80. Like Bob said, it would be nice to keep the DME and a second ILS is always nice but I see Stanton's point of dump it...(to me its old school-why keep it in an upgrades panel.)

GSXRPilot, I'm man enough to admit, that I've slobbered over your panel more than once. ha  Very nice!    Still waiting on that mystical lottery god ... (probably would help to win if I played ?!) 

 

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34 minutes ago, TargetDriver said:

nitially thought about the same game plan. Doing it in several stages to help spread the cost out but after realizing how much it costs each time to crack open the panel...geez.  Thousands each time for the same repetitive action of pulling the panel...

This is also a reason I wanted to go to the 900 vs 830.  With the 830 you have to keep and maintain the original factory gauges.  I know from experience that can get expensive.

I know where you are coming from though.  I'm planing on doing as much as the work I can myself, so there really isn't extra cost for me to go at it a little at a time.  

35 minutes ago, TargetDriver said:

Like yours, my ADF and indicator are history in this upgrade and I want to ditch the Sigtronics intercom with a nice panel one, probably a Garmin 340 or PS Eng 8000BT maybe. #2 KX155 stays for a second radio, the LORAN boat anchor goes. Still undecided on the KNS 80. Like Bob said, it would be nice to keep the DME and a second ILS is always nice but I see Stanton's point of dump it...(to me its old school-why keep it in an upgrades panel.)

It looks like you have two KY197's.  I didn't see a KX155 in the photo.(you could ebay the 2 197's and KN-53 and easily pick up a 155 with glideslope)  I really like the KNS 80 it's only drawback to me is the physical size.  I would like to keep my 80 but I also want to have everything in one center stack, the 80 + a 197 is too tall for everything else.

If you ditch the 80 you will only be giving up the DME and Rnav, Your nav 2 has glideslope.  If your 750 is operating you won't need rnav or dme.

Lots to think about. 

I'm looking forward to the after photos!

Cheers,

Dan

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One suggestion from my recent experience:  The coax for your antennae is quite old.  Replace it.  It made a significant quality difference for me. 

Also consider what's not in the panel.  How about a 406 MHz ELT while you've got everything torn apart?

Dave Piehler

N4583H

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Here is how I mounted my JPI 830, removed the ADF and in it went.  In Feb, my 84K is going to JLC Avionics in Ashland Or. to get the GTN 750, 345 in and out and a DAC GPSS.  One nice thing is Ashland is only 45 min. away and NO SALES TAX.

Pritch

PS the second photo is after adding more sensors 

 

IMG_1453.JPG

Picture0502171615_1.jpg

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Pritch,

Hello again !!  That's perfect!  But it looks like I have a second GS in the way.  Does anyone think it necessary to have a second GS anymore?  That's where I would like it to go, for scanning purposes.   I Googled avionics shops in Oregon for just those reasons.. No Taxes, and something still close enough to fly to.  I found Pacific Coast Avionics and JLC Avionics in Ashland.  You can be my guinea pig for JLC.  I'll be looking to have it all done in late March/April after I get back from my deployment.

So, an update...I thought I had the GTN 750 bought there seems to be too many red flags with the seller.  I may pass on a the deal of a lifetime but we all know what they say...if it seems too good to be true...  But, I did buy a G5 yesterday with the intentions of adding it to a compatible GPS/NAV/COM, so I think my next best move is to go do a detailed measurement of my panels and just layout and make new panels with the proper spacing for what I'm keeping and adding new.

Aside from just having a shop "just do it all" has anyone made their own actual panels?  I'm thinking of laying it out and have it waterjet cut somewhere local.  I used to run one and sure wish I had access to that again.  I could cut an entire panel section in less than 10 min...then just have it powder coated and maybe silk screened for lettering after and just take it to the shop with the plane.

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Dave,  I hate to post some questions for fear of looking ignorant on a past time that I love so much, but ... Is there some other government requirement coming that I'm oblivious too that requires us to change ELT's ?  What's the benefit of changing to that ELT over the one that's in my plane currently?  I did just replace the battery at last annual so it should be good for a while.

Most of you can tell, I'm NOT an avionics kind of guy so this will all be a huge learning experience. I've been blessed to be able to just about anything mechanically but the electronics world was left out of knowledge pack.  Ha 

I am surprised after doing research and looking at so many different panels, of even the same plane models, that there's almost no two panels alike.  I can only imagine how much of a cluster the factory must have been for assembly.

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16 minutes ago, TargetDriver said:

 ... Is there some other government requirement coming that I'm oblivious too that requires us to change ELT's ?  What's the benefit of changing to that ELT over the one that's in my plane currently?  .....

Assume your plane has the older 121.5 ELT.   Those have a high failure rate and at best merely emit a signal that says “come search all over for me.”

The 406 ELT are built to a tighter technical standard that greatly reduces false alarms and failures.  It also can send your ID and GPS location via satellite so the searchers know right away where to look.  

No requirement to upgrade.  

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Jerry,  Thank you for the ELT info. Sure makes sense and for $1K with the internal GPS ...what price do we put on life and safety. I'll sure add it to my Get-List on this upgrade trek.

 

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Having two ILSs Makes a lot of sense. If you fly IFR, down to Minimums... Hard IFR....

Consider How you would handle descending to minimums if your ILS guidance fails... do you You have a plan B for that?

Plan B may be as simple as to fly a non precision approach.

It may require flying pretty far to find weather that is different than the Airport you intend to fly into.

Know what I mean?

PP thoughts only, not a CFII...

Best regards,

-a-

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Having two ILSs Makes a lot of sense. If you fly IFR, down to Minimums... Hard IFR....
Consider How you would handle descending to minimums if your ILS guidance fails... do you You have a plan B for that?
Plan B may be as simple as to fly a non precision approach.
It may require flying pretty far to find weather that is different than the Airport you intend to fly into.
Know what I mean?
PP thoughts only, not a CFII...
Best regards,
-a-


I second the dual ILS capability. This was the way I flew IFR for years. I would set up both radios for the ILS and used them in a redundant mode.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Yea, keep the 2nd ils.  Id keep all aviation stuff on the left panel and put your edm on the left side of your right panel.  

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8 hours ago, TargetDriver said:

So, an update...I thought I had the GTN 750 bought there seems to be too many red flags with the seller.  I may pass on a the deal of a lifetime but we all know what they say...if it seems too good to be true...  But, I did buy a G5 yesterday with the intentions of adding it to a compatible GPS/NAV/COM, so I think my next best move is to go do a detailed measurement of my panels and just layout and make new panels with the proper spacing for what I'm keeping and adding new.

That's a bummer with the 750.

Are you planing on using the G5 for an AI or HSI?  I think(I might be wrong) you need it to be an HSI for GPSS.  If you do that you can remove one of your CDI's along with that ADF indicator.  That would open up a nice space for the EDM.

8 hours ago, TargetDriver said:

Aside from just having a shop "just do it all" has anyone made their own actual panels?  I'm thinking of laying it out and have it waterjet cut somewhere local.  I used to run one and sure wish I had access to that again.  I could cut an entire panel section in less than 10 min...then just have it powder coated and maybe silk screened for lettering after and just take it to the shop with the plane.

This is exactly what I plan to do.

Cheers,

Dan

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